Current Production has Minimal Impact on Trade Value

by on January 8, 2009 in Uncategorized - 34 Comments

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I know, you’re worried about value for Vesa Toskala and Tomas Kaberle. Well, don’t. Their recent performance(s) are killing their market value, right?

No. Market forces and low-ball offers may hinder dealing them now, but as the trade deadline approaches, true value is more likely for the Buds. And that’s good, because both players are underperforming.

Being in full evaluation/negotiation mode in fantasy leagues, posturing for position and propping up a sagging roster, it got me to thinking about reality-based trade evaluation, and how appraisals are distorted by current production .. or lack thereof.

Its weighting is minimal in most negotiations amongst NHL GM’s, very different from fantasy where stats rule and usually a derivative of this: ‘I love how he’s playing and increasing his potential trade value …” Or, “He’s stinking up the joint, and dropping his trade value …”

And I shake my head.

Most rhetoric is directed to recent play of Toskala and Kaberle, with intermittent reference to other Leafs. Fans speculate about possible returns for the rebuilding outfit as if current performance holds significant relevance in trade talks.

Detroit’s Henrik Zetterberg had two measly points in five games leading to the Winter Classic, making my fantasy Stinking list at McKeen’s Hockey. He scored his first goal in 10 games (10-1-7-8) against Columbus. Has his value diminished?

If value was based on current performance, Toronto wouldn’t have sent a first round pick to San Jose for Toskala – a ‘backup’ at the time – and Michael Ryder would not have been offered a 3-year, $12 million deal this past summer with the Bruins.

Steen and Carlo and Brandon

Alex Steen (20-2-2-4) and Carlo Colaiacovo (10-0-1-1) underperformed early on with the Buds, yet still netted Lee Stempniak, who was el fuego in the eight games prior (8-3-9-11).

Chicago acquired Calder Trophy candidate, Kris Versteeg, from Boston sending Brandon Bochenski the other way; the same player who ripped it up in exhibition play on a line with Dany Heatley and Jason Spezza coming out of the lockout and worn five jerseys since. Despite 24 goals in 124 games, he is currently with Norfolk in the AHL.

Some GM’s overpay for unrestricted free agents based on current production, with Dainius Zubrus and Ryan Malone (who is coming out of his funk) as examples, signing long term contracts coming off 20-plus goal seasons. David Legwand signed a monster deal last season and ever since has been injury-prone and a fantasy dud. Try prying him away from the Predators, however, and his realistic value is another matter.

Closer to home, the Buds gave Pavel Kubina $5 million – at an awkward time for exorbitant salaries – and offered Jeff Finger $3.5 million as an unknown commodity.

Jason LaBarbera was sent to the Canucks in exchange for a low, 7th round pick. Atlanta offered Ron Hainsey a monster 5-year, $22.5 million deal after striking out for a puck moving blueliner. Think the invisible hand of the market theory dominated that offer?

Skill, Fit and Value

It’s all about skill, what players can contribute in club’s silks in specific roles, not how they are playing right now.

Scouts/management evaluate players and file reports; general outlook, specific skills/deficiencies and evaluation on fit in the potential suitor’s outfit. Performance in the last game, 10 games, or even a season means very little. Michael Ryder scored 14 goals in 70 games last season with the Habs, matching that in 36 games with Boston. He’s given the B’s more scoring depth up front.

In addition to skill, fit and market value contribute to the acquisition price for a player.

NHL cubs generally don’t look at standings or player statistics. They discreetly send scouts to observe (like Columbus recently). Not necessarily watching the game, they isolate targeted player(s) in real game situations, and scrutinize on the basis of their organization’s specific criteria.

Teams build rosters mainly through homegrown methods (draft) and plug holes with deals of identified and targeted players, analyzing player’s individual skills as fits in their own lineup.

Trades are self-serving, made to enhance lineups (rentals), stabilize rosters (veteran depth) or acquire assets. GM’s evaluate rosters, consult with scouts for skills and other sources to verify intangibles like personality and character.

Market forces determine actual prices, more so than production. Cristobal Huet went for a 2nd round pick to the Washington Capitals as a potential free agent at the end of the season. Is Toskala worth more than a 2nd rounder, even if skills are worthy of more? Will the market dictate a lessened return?

A 50-goal scorer isn’t described as a 50-goal scorer among scouts. The skills (hands/speed/awareness etc) contributing to goal-scoring ability offer greater distinction. Remember Gary Leeman? He scored 50 goals once.

Life is Just a Fantasy .. Can You Live a Fantasy Life

But, we live in a fantasy and NHL 2K9 world.

We amuse and feed our passion by using valuations from fantasy leagues and video games that seep into everyday thoughts with a superficial yo-yo effect on a player’s realistic value. In fantasy, this bears relevance; in reality, not so much. There are two sides to every transaction. Stats and current performance are less relevant to reality-based swaps.

Factors weighted higher in valuations:

Natural talent (skill)
Age
Size/Mobility
Awareness (both sides of the puck)
Scoring ability (or lack thereof)
Offensive/Defensive aggressiveness (or lack thereof)
Personality/Character/Will to win/passion for the game
Market factors (player availability with similar skill sets; price adjustments for flood/lack of assets).

After this analysis, individual stats are possibly considered, within context.

When it comes to Toronto, speculation rules in the passionate environment. I shake my head when Leafs fans appear downhearted at the on-ice play, feeling like their assets are being devalued. It’s not the case throughout the NHL and definitely not for the Buds.

Let GM(s) determine value. Your job(s) are to enjoy the games and look forward to a consistently brighter future.

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  • http://www.easynegotiationtechniques.com Peter Quinn

    Hi. I am a long time reader. I wanted to say that I like your blog and the layout.

    Peter Quinn

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  • Fart

    Holy Boners! Well done good sir, I like the effect you’ve put into this Blizzog. Clearly your not one of the turdhat rooks when it comes to Fantasy Teams.

    Also, I love Fonzie……and the Leafs…….in that order.

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  • I B Leaf

    A team would be crazy to not pick up either of Kaberle or Kubina (if available). And both will fetch good returns make no mistake. Much like UFAs trades are not done only on what have you done lately but much like the factors you have listed.

    It would be a Cap hit of 1 to 1.25 Million. And if Cap room is a problem because both still have another year (one factor that may help or hurt the trade) Salary can come back the other way.
    PS. After waiving their NTC (to go to playoff teams) would their NTC then be in full effect for the off season and next year or is the wording based on the Leafs performance?

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  • Blair

    Nicely thorough.

    It also helps Toskala that the team in front of him isn’t the greatest. So even if he isn’t up to par that excuse will always linger in the back of the mind of scouts and a GM. But what might hurt his trade value, performance-wise, is the belief that his play his poor play is due to a groin injury. The Leafs aren’t helping their own cause by continuously talking about Toskala’s groin when they don’t even need to state there’s an injury, no matter how minor they indicate it to be.

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  • http://www.mckeenshockey.rivals.com Gus Katsaros

    @ I B Leaf

    Yes… players aren’t traded, their contracts are traded for another contract (player) or a To Be Determined contract (draft pick). All provisions of the contract remain in tact included NTC.

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  • Chance

    I highly doubt Toskola will be traded. Myself and others have said it before but there really is no market for goalies during the regular season. Perhaps the rare goalie trade goes down close to the deadline but I really don’t see Toskola being one of the guys that goes.

    If anything Edmonton and Chicago will probably part ways with one of their goalies but I don’t think VeTo has been targeted as a commodity other GM’s are looking for.

    On the subject of knowledge gained off fantasy games I always had the suspicion this is what JFJ woud do. Can’t you see it? He’s first in line to pick up his pre-ordered copy of NHL07. Throws it in, “Would you look at this guy on boston! Former calder trophy winner Andrew Raycroft… alright well what about our guys… Tuuka Rask isn’t even in the game?! Jeez… guy must have no value… Hmm maybe I can swing a one sided blockbuster trade here…”

    Yes you did JFJ… yes you did…

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  • betterforsome

    Well said Gus. I expect quite a bit from a Kaberle trade, whether at the deadline or the draft. One thing I don’t see though is the Leafs getting much for Toskala thanks to those market factors you mentioned. It’s no secret that forwards and especially defencemen continue to go for a premium but the goalie market has been cold as ice (see what I did there?) for a few years now. Burke even had to wave Bryzgalov after promising him he’d be a starter somewhere and then finding no takers for a trade.

    Also that nyioditf thing is just adbot or something… They’ll get rid of it eventually, I hope.

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  • Jon

    Well put…. very well put

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  • blueblood9

    great blog guys, a new daily read for me.

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  • Jon

    another example Jordan Staal

    4 mill for a guy that scored 12 G and 28 points

    and this year on pace for 22G and 42 Points playing with two of the best players in the league

    Kaberle will get a good return…

    Kaberle 4.25 mill… If i was a cup team i would take kaberle over staal in a second but everyone thinks it would take Kovalchuk to get staal but nothing to get Kaberle….gotta love coach GM’s they “know everything”

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  • Maynard

    Spezza’s not worth what he’s making, but I’d still trade for him in my pool.

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  • deMarcus

    that’s refreshing gus, thanks for another great post.

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  • vesku35

    THANK YOU

    way too many people speculate for way too long when they have absolutely NO CLUE about the value of certain players!!!!!

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  • http://www.mckeenshockey.rivals.com Gus Katsaros

    @ Chance – I don’t doubt that Raycroft for Rask may be one of the worst deals ever, but the truth was, Rask wasn’t going to sign in Toronto. Still, the return could have been better.

    @ betterforesome – You may be right about the deflated goaltender market, but perhaps throwing VT in there would spark interest and increase his own value when contemporaries are also considered (Think Philly would trade Biron for Toskala for a Cup run?)

    @ Jon – $@$^%@&*^!@ Staal – Friggin guy ruined all my sleeper thoughts in most pools. and, AND, when he scored a hat trick, he was on my bench .. !#@$@#!!!!!!

    @ vesku35 – I don’t mind the speculation, it’s part of being a fan. I do it too. But the fact of what players are currently doing shouldn’t really enter the equation, but always seems to.

    Maynard … I got a treat for you tomorrow … stay tuned …

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  • Hockey_Guru

    “Lee Stempniak, who was el fuego in the eight games prior (8-3-9-11).”

    Is that some Wade Belak math or what? haha

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  • http://msn wayne scarlett

    I guess we won’t be seeing Jordan Staal in a Leaf uniform now that he has re-upped for 4 years and 16 million.Like I stated in an earlier post,it was highly unlikely to happen anyway,but who knew?

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  • http://msn wayne scarlett

    Chance,there are two BIG reasons that Rask isn’t in Boston right now,andthose reasons are Tim Thomas,and Manny Fernandez’s contract.Manny has played decent too,but the future goalie in Boston is Rask.Whether he is a #1 or not depends not just on Rask himself,but also on the ability of management to keep that team together.

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  • http://msn wayne scarlett

    Kaberle will say where he is going,nobody else.Not even Burkie.Now if you believe the alledged sources quoted in the latest edition of the Hockey News,Kaberle only wants to go to one team,and that is Vancouver.Depending on Sundins’impact on the Canucks,and how foolish Gillis wants to be,I can see it happening as part of a larger deal.I think I have already added enough fuel to this subject the past few days,so I won’t speculate on what that deal might be.

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  • http://msn wayne scarlett

    Stempniak is playing through an unspecified injury,if you believe anything that Al Strachan says.Personally I don’t.But I was able to see several games the last two years in St.Louis and I think his struggles in Toronto have more to do with his linemates,than anything else.You give this guy 15 minutes a game with legit 2nd line or 3rd line players and the same linemates for the season,and he will put up25 to 35 goals and about 65 to 75 points.The thing is,Toronto has more players than anyone else in the league playing out of position and playing above their legitimate capabilities.Antropov is a legit 2nd line player,but not a legit centre until his faceoof percentage is higher than his age.Other than that,they have some younger guys that will be legit 1st if given the chance.John Mitchell is one kid that I would give 25 minutes a game,and damn the results this year.He will be a great player in the lon term as a result.70 points,which if you look at what Staal just got,should be woth about 7.5 a year:)

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  • http://msn wayne scarlett

    I am a two finger one thumb typist,in case you were not aware,judging by all the missed letters in the last post.Sorry about that.I will try to slow down and actually proof it next time before I click”post”.

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  • http://msn wayne scarlett

    Katsaros,did you get that from Strachan? Rask never stated he would not sign in Toronto.He said publically that he wanted to stay at home for another two years.That is why he was traded.But you are right that the return could have been better.I am a freelancer,not an accredited writer/photographer,so the sources that I have are always college friends who are now with either NHL teams or News outlets.I do not try to pass myself off as an expert,so please forgive the tone, but I do follow my Leafs more or less religiously and I can assure you that JFJ was offered considerably more than what he got for Rask.I cannot say what that was,but I do know that the teams were all in the Western conference and two of them were Detroit and Minnesota.The Wild balked and then got word about the health of two of their highly ranked prospects.Uncertain of who those two goalies are.Detroit was uncertain about Haseks’ plans.

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  • http://msn wayne scarlett

    wonder if Philly would do that Carter and a first for Kaberle deal now,if there really was such an offer last deadline?Adding Biron who is UFA in July for VT,might be enough for the Flyers to at least spend more than one minute before hanging up.But then again when was the last time someone hung up on Burkie?

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  • http://msn wayne scarlett

    The Buds sorely miss what Wade belak brought every night.I didn’t believe it when someone said he was the 5th overall pick the year he was drafted.But he was.Can’t access his junior stats,but apparently,he was a tough,power-forward type who put up some really good numbers.Anyone know where those stats would be archived?I don’t even know who he played junior for.

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  • http://msn wayne scarlett

    Gus,Finger wasn’t an unknown commodity.He was a player that frustrated Wilsons’ top line last year.If you remember,Coach Wilson said that he had went from 6 or 7 minutes a game at the start of last season to 23-25 minutes a game by the playoffs.I don’t recall the series result,but I do remember Wilson saying that Finger was huge against the Sharks.So he may have been overpaid but he was a known commodity to at least Wilson.If he can stay healthy and keep the same partner for more than 1 game,we just might see that player before the end of his deal.

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  • http://www.mckeenshockey.rivals.com Gus Katsaros

    Wayne, I have some sources. The Rask comment was from a non-leafs source. Obviously, I won’t divulge them.

    Al Strachan? He lost credibility a loooong time ago with me. Back when he was still writing for the Sun.

    The reference to Finger wasn’t by the people in the business. It was meant from a perspective of fans and haters. The night before the Buds signed him, I was working on the Colorado players scouting notes for the McKeen’s Hockey Pool Yearbook. I stopped writing the notes exactly after I had finished writing up Finger, so he was fresh. I was perfectly OK with the signing, money and decision, despite the haters laughing and making bad finger jokes.

    http://www.hockeydb.com your stats friend.

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