The Value of a 1st Round Pick (Or Two)

by on September 13, 2009 in Uncategorized - 325 Comments

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By now, I’m sure many of you have seen ESPN’s report of a significant offer by the Maple Leafs for Phil Kessel: two 1st round picks and a 2nd round pick. The general reflex reaction that we’ve been conditioned to by the Toronto media the last few seasons is to avoid moving 1st round selections by any means necessary. The thought of moving two such commodities is beyond horrifying. I’ve seen the name Taylor Hall used as the backbone of many an argument over the last few days, often associated with the “chance” of landing said player. If we’re gonna turn this into a game of chance, let’s at least get all the cards on the table.

We’re going into the 2009-2010 season within a matter of weeks, which means that up until now, the last draft class to have finished the 3 year entry level contract period is the 2006 group. So, we’re going to use the last 10 years worth of high draft picks to gauge the value or probability of landing an impact player. This gives ample time for players of that group to have made their mark as NHLers. Because that’s what we’re all ready scared about right? The potential of losing a high draft pick, let’s say top 10. Here are the Top 10 selections for the draft classes for the years 1997-2006. The exercise is very simple: identify and keep count of how many players you would rather have instead of Phil Kessel. Assume that all these players are 21 years old will go on to accomplish what it is they have accomplished:

1997: Joe Thornton, Patrick Marleau, Olli Jokinen, Roberto Luongo, Eric Brewer, Daniel Tkaczuk, Paul Mara, Sergei Samsonov, Nick Boynton, Brad Ference

1998: Vincent Lecavalier, David Legwand, Brad Stuart, Bryan Allen, Vitaly Vishnevski, Rico Fata, Manny Malholtra, Mark Bell, Michael Rupp, Nik Antropov

1999: Patrik Stefan, Daniel Sedin, Henrik Sedin, Pavel Brendl, Tim Connolly, Brian Finley, Kris Beech, Taylor Pyatt, Jamie Lundmark, Branislav Mezei

2000: Rick DiPietro, Dany Heatley, Marian Gaborik, Rostislav Klesla, Raffi Torres, Scott Hartnell, Lars Jonsson, Nikita Alexeev, Brent Kahn, Mikhail Yakubov

2001: Ilya Kovalchuk, Jason Spezza, Alexandr Svitov, Stephen Weiss, Stanislav Chistov, Mikko Koivu, Mike Komisarek, Pascal Leclaire, Tuomo Ruutu, Dan Blackburn

2002: Rick Nash, Kari Lehtonen, Jay Bouwmeester, Joni Pitkanen, Ryan Whitney, Scottie Upshall, Joffrey Lupul, Pierre-Marc Bouchard, Petr Tacicek, Eric Nystrom

2003: Marc-Andre Fleury, Eric Staal, Nathan Horton, Nikolai Zherdev, Thomas Vanek, Milan Michalek, Ryan Suter, Braydon Coburn, Dion Phaneuf, Andrei Kositsyn

2004: Alex Ovechkin, Evegeni Malkin, Cam Barker, Andrew Ladd, Blake Wheeler, Al Montoya, Rostislav Olesz, Alexandre Picard, Ladislav Smid, Boris Valabik

2005: Sidney Crosby, Bobby Ryan, Jack Johnson, Benoit Pouliot, Carey Price, Gilbert Brule, Jack Skille, Devin Setoguchi, Brian Lee, Luc Bourdon*

2006: Erik Johnson, Jordin Staal, Jonathan Toews, Nicklas Backstrom, Phil Kessel*, Derrick Brassard, Kyle Okposo, Peter Mueller, James Sheppard, Michael Frolik

My picks: Thornton, Marleau, Luongo, Lecavalier, Sedin, Sedin, Heatley, Gaborik, Kovalchuk, Spezza, Nash, Bouwmeester, Fleury, E. Staal, Vanek, Phaneuf, Ovechkin, Malkin, Crosby, E. Johnson, Toews, Backstrom

Of the 98 possible candidates (minus Bourdon and Kessel), I would have selected 22 players instead of Phil Kessel (22.45%). What does that mean? How does that translate with two top 10 picks?

Chances of selecting two players better than Kessel = .2245 x .2245 = 5.04%

Chances of selecting one player better than Kessel = 2 x .2245 x (1-.2245) = 34.82%

Chances of selecting no players better than Kessel = (1-.2245) x (1-.2245) = 60.14%

That means that even with assuming the extreme unlikelihood of back-to-back top 10 selections, I would have a 60% chance of not landing a player of Phil’s calibre (by my valuation). Those lauding the draft choices, I suggest you try the exercise yourself and have a quick go at the percentages. What are the “chances” that you’ll be disappointed?

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  • HHT

    One question to ponder which I don’t think anyone else has posed … presuming we are willing to trade two firsts and a 2nd – are there any other young players we could and would like to acquire for that price? If we’re willing to trade firsts or prospects even, is there no one else out there as interesting?

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  • Scot Loucks

    HHT;
    .
    There probably are… they just aren’t as available.
    .
    Boston has backed itself into a corner with Kessel. They offered him the same money as Krejci and he refused. They have serious cap issues and a dearth of good young forwards…. so they are trying to turn one of those forwards (Kessel) into something good. Thing is, they will want a player that can play now, especially a puck moving defenseman.
    .
    Cheers

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  • Tim

    @ Scot- You missed Camp 3. We’ll call it Reality Camp. The ones that believe adding Phil Kessel would be a good move, but not at the price some are suggesting. These are the people that have a good grasp on the reality of how hockey has changed and understand good talent. Their not willing to take it in the rear for one player, their generally open to hear anything, they want to make an informed decision and want all the facts. Their not going to jump like a school girl at the mention of Phil Kessel as they realize their are other options that may be viable for their Team.

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  • Scot Loucks

    @Tim;
    .
    And just what other options like this one are there Tim?
    .
    An opportunity like this one does not come along very often. As an example Toews and Kane are RFA’s next year…. but the Leafs can’t go after them. They don’t have their picks…. even though they have the cap space next year.
    .
    It’s not often that a team backs itself into cap problems with RFA’s that are proven. Boston and the Flyers and Anaheim during the cap years so far… and my guess it won’t happen too many times after this. GM’s are getting a lot more “cap smart”.
    .
    Anyway, other options please?
    .
    Cheers

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  • Tim

    @ Scot- Well the option the Leafs are looking at is to trade for Kessel as well as Boston, so Scot I would suspect there are 29 other options. If you look at my previous post’s this move to obtain a second was in hindsight not as bright as we may think. It effectively removes Toronto from all other RFA’s next year. Good luck getting those back from Chicago! I realize this is the move Burke had to make in order to “threaten” the negotiations but is it the best? The pool of RFA’s next year is some serious talent, leaving us a hell of a lot more than one or two option’s!

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  • HHT

    At some stage this season, I’d really like to see the Leafs finish what they started and obtain Brayden Schenn from LA – him and his brother would be the Road Warriors of the Leafs.

    BSchenn is a total Burke type player! Burke’s new approach is a total 180 turn from the annual love-in with soft, coddled, comortable, mentally weak players like Sundin who were put on a pedestal in recent years.

    Playoff wins will be what matter, not second assists, Campbell’s soup commercials and PP points.

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  • Scot Loucks

    @Tim;
    .
    I believe that the price for an offer sheet over 6m is 4 first round draft picks, no?
    ,
    Burke still has those if he doesn’t land Kessel.
    .
    So Burke removed himself from the 4 to 6m offer sheet in 2010, not yet the 6.1m offer sheet, unless the Bruins bite.
    ,
    So … 4 first rounders for a Towes or Kane? Or 2 firsts and a second for Kessel?
    ,
    I trust the current brain trust at MLSE.
    .
    Cheers

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  • Tim

    @ HHT- Yes it does feel different, the entitlement tag has been removed from the equipment!
    I would love to land little Schenn, this is a must at some point in his career. Imagine the return on these shit heads that had NTC and wouldn’t waive, and the “we want to remain a Leaf” is bullshit, they just didn’t want to move from the comfort of their Muskoka cottages.

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  • Tim

    @ Scot- I too have faith in the brain trust at MLSE! Or in particular the Leafs. I agree we didn’t remove ourselves from the $6.1 range of RFA’s, which it will likely cost to obtain one. But we did remove ourselves from the threat of a $4-$6 range which could get interesting if the cap was to drop? So we have less option’s next year which effectively swings it back to this year and leaves us with the Kessel or Dubinsky option. So we’ve managed to take away option’s instead of add options.
    I do like your point about the range of OS though. I would be horrified if we used 2-1st’s this year and wiped out 4-1st’s next.

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  • Tim

    * 1-1st this year and 4-1st’s next, I meant offer sheet route.

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  • Scot Loucks

    At … all.
    .
    So 4 first round picks for Toews or Kane is worth it plus 6.1m salary plus, but 2 firsts for Kessel isn’t at 5m per for 5 years is a bad deal?
    .
    Not sure I follow that logic.
    .
    Cheers

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  • Tim

    @ Scot- If Boston backed into a cap nightmare why give them two firsts ? They’ve tried to move Kessel on a few occasions. No bite, why? I’m all for him coming in, but at what rate? And no, 4-1st’s was the point you brought up, I just added that is what it will likely cost for Toews or another high end RFA. Cap drop next year, maybe not? We have taken ourselves out of the $4-$6 range RFA’s next year, so we will not need to wonder if we could of had x-player for 1st-2nd-3rd picks. I would imagine Burke will try hard knowing this and Kessel will be a Leaf. If we give up 2-1sts then we effectively remove ourself from all RFA’s next year. Not that I would want to give up 4-1sts. How much could we move up in the draft with 2-1sts-1 2nd-1-3rd and so on? Wow it amazes me at how much people like Phil Kessel and how much they would part with. Maybe it just me I’m not as sold on him as others.

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  • Scot Loucks

    So Tim;
    .
    Reverting back to my first comment … you are of Camp 1. Not sold on the worth of Kessel.

    Bed time for Bonzai.

    Cheers

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  • Tim

    @ Scot- I would have to say I’m Camp 3…haha
    Night! I’m off to the hay also. Good conversation!

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  • drog

    “According to sources, Leafs general manager Brian Burke has exchanged numerous proposals with Bruins counterpart Peter Chiarelli in the hopes of a Kessel trade. It is believed that one of the offers included two first-round draft picks and a second-rounder as reported by espn.com on Saturday, but there was speculation the Bruins would rather have players in return for Kessel.”

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/kessel-watch-continues/article1286465/

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  • IBleaf

    @LeafsRyan…Id love to chirp back at you but over the past few hours I have become humbled.
    If you look at any of my posts I never said I didnt want kessel, I always said he would help the team with scoring, What I did say was that hes a one dimensional player. And the main thing I said over and over again was “If they get him great , if they dont its not the end of the world” can anybody vouge for me here?? TT i know you heard me say that?lol

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  • ourkid77

    Really? Only 22 guys from that list (or 18? or even 15??!!)? You’re logic is flawed. You should be trying to pick players equal to or better, relative to position as well as factoring in future potential. You only include 3 D in your list and 2 goalies. How is that even possible? Sure, there were only 9 or 10 goalies out of the 98 players taken, but I’d still also take Price, Leclaire and Lehtonen as relatively equal to Kessel – and there’s still hope for even Montoya. Leclaire and Lehtonen have played on terrible teams, and Price was outstanding as a rookie. I know Komisarek is a defensive D-man, but for what he brings to the table, he’s an equal in my opinion.

    You pick only 10 players from the ’03-’06 drafts, while I would take at least 25! I have a list of 48 players total. 48! Including 8 from both Kessel’s draft year, as well as the (likely to be) historic ’03 draft.

    Has it occurred to anyone that Kessel played the whole season with one of the best set-up men in the league (Savard) last year? Is it just as possible that it was a fluke, and if you put him on a so-so team with below average centres that he flops? He had a very good year last year, sure, but his first two were completely pedestrian.

    Is there anyone reading this who wouldn’t rather save those 2 first round picks and make a sweetened offer to Chicago for Kane or Toews next season? They can’t possibly afford both of them at this point. And the Leafs can’t make an offer sheet to either of them, because Burke traded the ’11 3rd rounder to them to get back the 2nd rounder for this year. I don’t think they’ll be giving it back if they think Burke will use it to make an offer to Kane or Toews…

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  • TuckerThomas

    @ IBLeaf
    IBLeaf that is so!! Yes you did!! It’s etched in stone—^^^^!! ;)

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  • Aetherial

    I thought Burke wanted testosterone. Doesn’t Kessel have like, one nut?

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  • TuckerThomas

    @ ourkid77
    “”He had a very good year last year, sure, but his first two were completely pedestrian.”"
    ~
    IF we played Kadri from this year on, I’m sure his first two seasons woudl look fairly “pedestrian” compared to his “breakout” third.

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  • ourkid77

    Will they? Is anyone really sure about that? I saw a bit of the Mem Cup, but not enough to form an opinion either way about Kadri.

    The point is, is there any way to difinitively say that last season was either “just the tip of the iceberg”, or “probably a fluke” about Kessel? No, there isn’t, obviously. But that was a leap of Jonathon Cheechoo-like proportions last year. I would like to see more than one season of excellent play before I committed two first rounders for him. Especially when you’re going to have pay him around $4M per year…

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  • Tim

    @ ourkid77- I think we’ll have to pay him more in the range of $5-5.5 mil. pr. yr. I have no problem with Kessel, I hate closing other options as I’ve stated. The feasibility of an offer sheet is closed next yr. when the RFA talent is very deep, unless you want to give up 4-1sts. On the other hand that is the price you pay to go this route. I’m sure Burke realized this when he dumped his 2nd and 3rd to obtain this years 2nd, thats why I think Burke will go “all in” to get Kessel. I also had some questions about the rating as way to many factors are not considered.
    .
    @ Aetherial- LMAO good one!

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  • JT

    Here Here for Ourkid77. Finally someone who knows what he’s talking about!! Everyone assumes that BB knows what he’s doing. He just decided to keep Cliff Fletcher for 3 more years. Yes Mr. “draft schmaft” himself. Perhaps Fletcher will rub off on Burke and compromise our future again. BB has never built thru the draft so don’t expect him to start now. Consider the picks gone and u can forget about Kane or Toews because the quick-tempered BB isn’t patient enuf to wait!

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  • SBQS

    Good to see you are taking a statistical approach to your analysis, vs. the usual (especially by posters to the site) of analysis based on the narrow and simplistic “what about this example from the past” approach. Analysis consisting of one data point (the “what about this example from the past” approach) is the worst type of analysis to conduct when attempting to make a good decision. This applies to anything in life, not just trades and drafting in hockey.

    One additional variable I would include in your analysis is that the quality of the GM in a particular scenario needs to be considered based on the view that some GM’s are better than others in picking one of the 22% of players who are better than Kessel. On average, all the GM’s in the league would pick the player better than Kessel 22% of the time, but at an individual level, due to differences in skill of the GM’s the percentage would vary. On the basis that Burke is a superior GM (seems to be the general opinion that he’s top 3), he would have a greater likelihood of picking one of the 22% of players who are better than Kessel. I’m not interesting in statistically analyzing what that percentage would be, ‘cuz I’m lazy and ‘cuz sports are mindless to watch nevermint to think about for more than 10 minutes, but my guess would be that he’d have a 60-70% chance of picking one of the 22% of players better than Kessel (and many of the crappy GM’s would have a 0-5% chance, thus averaging out to 22%). Also, had he kept the 2 picks, he would have been able to try twice. On the basis of him being a more highly skilled GM and thus having better odds, plus the fact he would have had two kicks at it, drafting to me seems like a worthwhile risk to take.
    i.e. Shouldn’t have made the trade……

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