Time for the kids…
I must confess, I bought in. I bought into the mantra of improved team toughness, improved goaltending, improved and revamped defense, and an improved top6 forward unit possessing speed and skill who would be protected and insulated by a tough as nails complimentary group of players. I watched the pre-season and was salivating at the skill, speed, and determination exhibited by the up and coming Leafs prospects. But, then something very strange happened, something I cannot comprehend nor understand. Every single player (with the exception of Stalberg), which had led to such optimism and belief of brighter days ahead – were demoted to the OHL or the AHL. I sat there shaking my head, and privately and publicly went on and on about how this team could not succeed without the youth. Ironically enough, I had absolutely no idea how right I was and how bad this could and would get.
To any of those who may feel I am being an alarmist, or who feel my opinions and beliefs are off the mark, the reality of this situation is right there in front of your faces. The Leafs defense will surely improve as they gel and find their way. Their goaltending cannot possibly get any worse, and I would be willing to wager, that come November/December, Toskala will once again return to his career type of numbers (.900 SP and 3.00 or less GAA) – whether that is with the Leafs or elsewhere. However, by then, it will clearly be too late, and Leafs nation will be crying about the inevitable loss of a top flight draft pick that this club has desperately needed for the last 15 years.
The mistakes have already been made here. The failure to resign Antropov to a VERY affordable and reasonable $4M/year contract – and now wondering where your big bodied, top6 offensive zone pressure and cycling are going to come from, the failure to move Thomas Kaberle, garner a return likely to include a good, young, top6 forward, the failure to recognize the importance of building from within and dumping a prospect like Anton Stralman vs inserting him into your lineup in place of Kaberle, the over confidence in what was built and risking 2 1st round picks to acquire a talent like Kessel at this stage of the rebuilding process – are all done and in the past. I would like nothing more then to write pages about the obviousness of these miscalculations, however, that would not help address what is needed at this point in order to salvage this season, and potentially this franchise, from another decade or more of futility. Regardless of how good a player Kessel turns out to be. If even the most optimistic projections come to fruition, this franchise will not overcome the loss of a top 1-3 pick in next years draft. The loss of another such high pick, almost 20 years ago (Scott Niedermayer and if not for some late season heroics, would have been Eric Lindros) sent this franchise into complete and utter chaos for the next 20 years, as they desperately tried, time and time again to fill the obvious void and lack of a franchise player to shore up their defense or round out their offense – and ultimately, cost the franchise AT LEAST 1 Cup. Irregardless if the return for the current version of that 1st round pick is Kessel, who, in all probability has a very bright future as compared to the Tom Kurvers trade which cost the Leafs Lindros or Scott Niedermayer.
The issue with the Leafs right now is 3 fold, and really, is not hard to see.
1) Goaltending – Toskala has been average, but, not nearly bad enough to deserve the roastings he has been receiving. Toskalas primary problem is an organization trying to change the style of a 32 year old goalie on an expiring contract and his ability to stay healthy. Toskala is what he is. He is a small, aggressive, reflex goalie who has a hard time staying healthy for a prolonged period of time. He is also a career .900 SP and under a 3.00 GAA goalie. Because of his style of play, and his reliance on reflexes, he is traditionally a slow starter, and especially when coming off an injury plagued season. This is his career pattern and this will continue to be his career pattern until such time as his age catches up to his reflexes and he is no longer capable of rebounding from inevitable future injuries and having his reflexes respond at an NHL level. Why on earth the Leafs would try and turn this goalie into a stand up, positionally sound goal tender, at this point in his career, while on an expiring contract, simply defies all logic. Work the man back into NHL game form, and hope and pray that their analysis of Gustuvvson is accurate and he is able to adequately play half the games until Toskala finds his game and is moved. In the interim, they have a pair of AHL goalies which can spot fill duty as required due to injury and various other factors.
2) lack of offensive pressure – this is simply the most glaring problem with the Leafs this season. There is simply no other way to look at this. If the puck is not in the offensive zone, or being controlled in the neutral zone, then it is in your own zone or coming into your own zone. If you are not creating offense, then you are allowing scoring chances. The old adage used to be, “the best offense is a good defense” – this no longer applies in the modern NHL, and can be clearly witnessed by the teams that have competed for and won the Cup in recent times. In the modern NHL, the best defense is a good offense. This is just reality, the rules are structured this way, the game is called this way, the teams that “get this” concept, win the most games. The Leafs desperately need to create more offensive zone pressure, and although the inevitable injection of Kessel into their lineup will, without a doubt, help their offense, it will not resolve their fundamental problem of creating offensive zone pressure, reducing the chances against, increase the number of times they are on the PP vs the PK and ultimately turn this season around.
3) coaching – I have absolutely ZERO doubt Ron Wilson is a premium NHL coach, however, the way he is handling his assets right now is outright embarrassing. I am not certain if the issue is Brian Burke and the players he is insisting be played in the hopes of recouping draft picks or assets, or if the issue is Wilsons end, or both. Some very simple and fundamental concepts are missing here, and ultimately, Mr Burke and Mr Wilson need to get together and decide on a strategy and a gameplan here. Most of the issues demonstrated so far (and yes, early in the season) – are easy – VERY EASY – to remedy. Line combinations, when to play which players, when to temporarily bench a particular player short term vs when to sit in the pressbox, when to roll out the 4th line and for what purpose, which players should be in the lineup and why – are all simple fundamentals that are clearly being missed here. For the life of me, I cannot figure out why.
OK, SO, WHATS THE FIX?
The fix here is not as difficult as most would believe. This team will not compete for the cup as it is structured today, however, competing for the playoffs? now, thats a different story. As the Leafs are structured now, they have all of the elements required to at least be competitive. However, as stated previously, their utilization of their assets is their primary problem. This is at both the GM and the coaching level. The Leafs do not have a current top6 unit that strikes fear into the hearts of the opposition, and that is not likely to change in the short term. Their strategy needs to be altered in order to be effective. They need speed and skill injected into their top6. They need a 3rd line composed of veterans who are a threat offensively and can carry offensive momentum when required, yet are mandated and forced to be defensively responsible and can halt the other teams momentum when required. They need to utilize their potentially physically dominant 4th line and defensive corps more intelligently and opportunistically.
The simplest answer here is to inject youth and create competition in their top3 lines.
As of right now, their top3 lines should look something like this:
- Grabovski – Kulemin, Ponikarovsky or Hagman
- Bozak – Stalberg, Kessel (when healthy) or Hanson or Tlusty
- Stajan OR Mitchell – Blake, Hagman or Stempniak or Ponikarovsky or Kulemin
You then have a wide array of players choose from for your 4th line. It does not matter which ones the team picks, but, they should pick 4 and get rid of the rest by any means necessary. The list of players includes Primeau, Wallin, Orr, Rosehill, Mitchell OR Stajan, Mayars. 2 of which simply have to go.
On your top 2 lines, fortunately or unfortunately, the Leafs only have 3 center options within their organization that can potentially fill the top 2 center roles. And since Kadri has been sent back to junior, and is unavailable, for better or for worse, Grabovski and Bozak are your only options for center for your top2 lines, and the Leafs must absolutely run with these 2 players (again, barring some miraculous trade that will yield an established top2 centerman for unusable pieces on expiring contracts that the Leafs have to offer).
When Kessel is able to play, it will organically create upwards pressure from kids likely on the farm (Hanson, Tlusty) and will also enable moving players around on the top3 lines based on game to game and shift to shift performance. Most importantly though, you need to clearly identify roles and expectations for lines 1-2 and line 3. Players “demoted” to the 3rd line, are responsible for their own end first and take the offense when they can get it. Players on the top2 lines are expected to push the puck forward and generate offense. There should be a steady stream of movement between top2 lines and 3rd line for players like Kulemin, Ponikarovsky, Hanson, Tlusty, Hagman, Stempniak and movement to and from the Marlies for players like Kulemin, Stalberg, Tlusty, Hanson – until the ultimate pecking order is decided by consistency of play and overall output. Most importantly though, and in order for this strategy to be effective, the 4th line needs to be sent over the boards to punish the other team, without taking absurd penalties whenever momentum seems to have been lost, or whenever the opponent is looking to be taking over the physical aspect of the game. This needs to be supplemented by the defense, who are a very physical and very capable group. Coaching discretion needs to be made. If a player receives a “bad” penalty (ie for elbowing Tucker in the head for no apparent reason), that player needs to be sat – not thrown back out there the next shift after ultimately causing a critical PP goal against at a crucial time in the game. If the player receives a penalty for a “smart” play and an effective gamble that went bad, then they should be rewarded with more ice time, even if it results in a GA.
The Leafs desperately need to infuse their youth and speed now – for better or for worse. They absolutely MUST create an environment of accountability based on performance and decisions and they must be ready and willing to execute that strategy, regardless of what name happens to be on the back of the jersey. As long as Mr Burke is adamant about playing the group as is, and insists on garnering imaginary and inflated returns for 3rd or 4th line players playing with zero current success in more prominent roles, this team is destined to wallow near the bottom of the NHL standings. Darcy Tucker said it best when asked how and why the Avalanche have been able to get off to the successful start they have – his answer was simple – “youth” – something the Leafs clearly left behind.
October 15th, 2009 at 10:18 pm
Stop whinning! You’re acting like habs fans! Give the Leafs a chance! GO LEAFS GO!
October 15th, 2009 at 10:21 pm
I for one will admit I am super excited to watch Kessel play, and can’t wait till he’s back in the lineup!
October 15th, 2009 at 10:22 pm
Good news is the Habs lost. And Gomez got demolished.
October 15th, 2009 at 10:22 pm
Agreed. I can’t wait to see Kessel.
October 15th, 2009 at 10:23 pm
@ Reether
I second that.
October 15th, 2009 at 10:24 pm
I don’t get what’s wrong with Nashville.
October 15th, 2009 at 10:34 pm
@reether
I would tell you I’m excited to see Kessel but it would be like a tape recording lol
October 15th, 2009 at 10:41 pm
@Jordan
Ya man, I know you were the biggest fan of this trade as you wanted him for months. I have learnt that it is better to just go with the flow and accept things. I’m going to try my best to ignore the whole dynamics of the trade and enjoy the fact that we have a great young player on our team to watch. Finally a guy who we can hopefully count on to put the puck in the net.
I want to try to find that video with all of Kessel’s goals from last year.
October 15th, 2009 at 10:50 pm
@Reether
There’s a video on youtube of all Phil’s goals from last year. There are many beauties. He has a wicked release that seems to be destined for the top corner almost every time. And he skates like the wind. I can’t wait!
October 16th, 2009 at 12:02 am
“@ Andrew
Columbus has a weak defense. They’ll be the first to tell you that. So yeah, Stralman makes it there. And he has a right shot. Bottom line is, he had some opportunity and didn’t show improvement – at the AHL level either. There’s a reason he went for a third, not a first. He might flourish and he might not, but I think Burke did a good job of asset management in this case.”
completely disagree… Columbus has a wek defense, yet qualified for the playoffs last year in the WEST and are off to a strong start so far this year? wow – wish Toronto had a D that “weak”
“The Calgary game I watched had Kronwall GETTING plastered.”
great, he took a hit or two – he has dished out more then he has received..
“Oh, and if you’re so against personal attacks, then why call the guy who corrected you a clown. Sounds like a personal attack to me.”
Yes, and I will continue to label anyone who points out spelling mistakes in a BLOG as a clown
@Tucker Thomas
“@ Andrew R
If you agree with the Kessel deal (barring the 1st being top 5) then you’re inadvertently condoning the Stralman deal. Calgary’s 2nd in 2011 (the return for Stralman) and our 3rd 2011 were traded to the Hawks for the 2nd 2010 used to obtain Kessel.
The Stralman deal was arguably part of Burke’s plan to land the speedy 21 year old sniper.”
The fact of this trade was simple.. if the Leafs were not going to force an offer sheet, there was no reason to make any further trades.. there is no magic bluff here by Burke – I mean honestly, he bet over and gave 2 1at round picks… I do somewhat agree with you – I could have lived with 1 of 2 options… made all of these moves to force an offer sheet down Bostons throat.. or make the trade you made and assume you would not finish in the bottom 5.. Honestly, if the Leafs compete for the playoffs, they likely do not lose this trade, even with all of the BS secondary moves.. but, come seasons end, I am still very curious to see how Burke handles the entire Stralman scenario.. the kid will likely finish with similar stats to Kaberle – and how do you justify giving up Stralman for nothing, and missing out on the return for Kaberle – when the outputs will be similar.. Funny enough, and on this topic, I was speaking to a scout with the Blue Jackets earlier today (Actually unrelated topic on why we were originally speaking, but, while I had them on the phone…) – the bluejackets are laughing at us – all the way to the bank.. they were fully prepared to give up Vorachuk and a 2nd for Kaberle… instead, they get Stralman, and for nothing, will likely get the same or close to the same production for practically nothing, and they saved giving up Vorachuk and a 2nd… this one is going to look bad come year end..
October 16th, 2009 at 12:18 am
@ Tucker Tomas – to expand on my comments, so that its not misintepretated…. if Kessel turns into that 40-50 goal scorer I expect (not this year, but in future years) and the price was 2 mid 1st rounders and Stralman, I could live with that and would consider this a win… Stralman is a good player, and will be a very good PP QB, etc.. but, he will not be that franchise type of D… He is basically a Kaberle.. a top 4 guy, who can QB your PP.. and for a 40-50 goal scorer, at 21 years old.. I would not complain.. the issue becomes if the Leafs actually bottom out and those 1st round picks end up being a top5 pick… at that point, this becomes very very scary… if Kessel ends up costing us 2 middle of the pack 1st round picks and Stralman, I wont complain.. fact of the matter though, there was no reason to trade Stralman in the first place.. we could have got a 2nd round pick from them for any number of prospects in order to facilitate their unloading of some salary (ie Primeau)
October 16th, 2009 at 1:09 am
@ Andrew R
Don’t argue with me about Columbus’ defense. That’s the general opinion of it. I don’t form those types of opinions on teams I don’t follow closely. Take a look at their depth chart and tell me if you’re blown away. What of their biggest hindrances in advancing past where they did – and improving this year – was their power play. So yes, Stralman might improve that. Marc-Andre Bergeron is considered a pp guy also- you’re going to tell me he is the next coming of Christ? And I love how you’re not predicting, rather stating what Stralman’s numbers are going to be. Please, tell me where this crystal ball of yours is.
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Kronwall dishing out more than he received doesn’t turn him into a world class defenseman. Yay, he is a big guy and sometimes hits well. There’s a reason Washington passed on him after they took him off waivers. And there’s a reason he probably won’t see that much ice time with Calgary, barring some injuries. You’re throwing mediocre to semi-decent prospects around like they’re going to win us the Cup. They’re not. Nobody cares where Kronwall is, because he ain’t that great. We have Oreskovic and Frogren who perform the same duties he does.
October 16th, 2009 at 1:23 am
@ Charlie – say what you will – Columbus is a playoff team – Leafs, likely, are not… so, it is difficult to argue that a player is not good enough for the Leafs, when that player can make a team that is bound for the playoffs… want to argue? fine.. show me how that player can make a playoff team and excel on that team,when the Leafs cant make the playoffs.. until then… you have no right or basis to argue this point….
October 16th, 2009 at 1:31 am
@ Andrew
Why must I spell it out for you? The very fact that he couldn’t crack this team or Calgary yet cracked Columbus’ team is all one must know. It was well documented what areas they lacked in, again, not my personal opinion.
And for Christ sake, stop talking about his production as if he has already broke Lidstrom’s point record. Please.
October 16th, 2009 at 1:40 am
@ Charlie – who is talking about Lidstrom – is reading a challenge of yours? and I quote: “Stralman is a good player, and will be a very good PP QB, etc.. but, he will not be that franchise type of D… He is basically a Kaberle.. a top 4 guy, who can QB your PP”
“”
As for Calgary.. Sutter was quoted as saying that Stralman was the “best player on the ice” – the fact they have a top4 better then anyone else in the league, and committed to long term contracts, sort of spelled his doom there.. You want to slag the Columbus D, then do it intelligently.. sounding off on how they have a horrible D, yet, SOMEHOW, managed to make the playoffs, and will likley do it again, while the Leafs are on the outside looking in… honestly, isnt really making your case.. wanna tray again?
October 16th, 2009 at 5:02 am
@Andrew I think the flaw in your thinking is that you as assuming or guessing he will be a great/good player. The facts are simply that he does not have the numbers to warrant the claim that he is nothing more than an average or below average player. Another fact that might help is that I think Burke and company believed he would never take the BS that is Toronto… Playing for the Leafs is not just as simple as playing hockey, it comes with a lot more than that and more so than a no where (as in the hockey market hotbeds go) place like Columbus.
So if you’re correct in your assumption that he will be an elite player like Kaberle it might only happen if it does in a place like Columbus and never in a place like Toronto… it it makes you feel better we can always trade for him back.
As for Kessel, just for the record, he was supposed to have been picked in the top 3, he fell to 5 because of speculation. He isn’t Schenn good he more like the Crosby varitey; if he wasn’t ineligible for the 2005 draft we would be looking at people talking who would go first Crosby or Kessel (from wiki: Kessel had an outstanding 2004–05 junior season, one in which many NHL scouts ranked him as a prospect comparable to Sidney Crosby[1] (and one of The Next Ones[2]). So even if he doesn’t get to be as good as Crosby still says a lot about the guy. Tell me the last time the Leafs had anyone that could be mentioned in the same breath as one of the leagues elite.
@TuckerThomas: Do you really really think comparing guys that were not even drafted their draft year or players that have been drafted out of the top five as a comparable players to the ones you mentioned… BTW they happen to be 1st, 2nd and 3rd over top picks. See what I mean? Anyway, to answer your question, no I don’t think all three should be playing in the NHL and I don’t know any of these young star players that I could say “They are also washing up at a younger age.” What players that “were NHL ready” and washed up… and if there are players, you know stars that are washed up (I would assume for more than 3 years of sucking would be the least time for someone to be considered “washed up”) would being washed up have anything at all to do with playing in the NHL before they were really ready and mature enough to handle it? Maybe?
@ingy56 Yes the cap forces teams to spend wisely, when they fuck up their cap space they really don’t have many options… one of those options is to play a kid over a NHL proven player – Don’t believe me? Find a GM and ask him yourself. As for wanting to see what we saw in pre-season, I’m right there with you. I too like many fans want to see that team, that level of energy, competition and all that good shit but I wanna see it for years and years, not just one season or more likely for half a season. Fast track a rebuild all you want, still doesn’t mean there are gonna be speed bumps along the way.
Finally, hats off to emanuel82, boy did you ever hit that nail on the head! “Stop whinning! You’re acting like habs fans! Give the Leafs a chance! GO LEAFS GO!” Bravo Leafs fan, Bravo!
October 16th, 2009 at 8:17 am
@ Andrew
How about this gem of yours:
“fine.. show me how that player can make a playoff team and excel on that team”
Please explain how he is excelling. Here are his outstanding stats:
3 GP, 1 G, -1.
Yes, it’s early, but that goes both ways. Where the hell do you come up with your excelling bullshit? Where do you come up with stating, not predicting, stating that he will have Kaberle output. Holy hell you’re a bloody fool. Let me guess, if we trade Poni at the deadline we should get 5 first round picks, right?
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You are such a fucking fool it is sad. The game that Sutter said Stralman was thf n the ice was a pre-season game that the TOP FIVE of Calgary’s defensemen were NOT playing. Get your fucking facts straight you fool.
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Oh wait, you think you’re cool cause ” I was speaking to a scout with the Blue Jackets earlier today”. Talking to your mom and her telling you how smart you are doesn’t count.
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And for the last fucking time, Columbus doesn’t have a horrible D. I never said that. They have a weak D. I DIDN’T MAKE THAT UP. That’s not my opinion, that’s been stated time and time again that that is their one weak spot. Hence their pp being in the bottom of the league.
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And by the way, you set the tone for our exchange here. You want to keep it nice, I was all for thfu went ahead with being a hypocrite and making it personal… no problem.
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The Blue Jackets are laughing all the way to the bank, eh? That’s why instead of trading for Stralman, they offered us Voracek and a 2nd for Kaberle. Yeah, makes tons of sense. When nobody else was available, THEN they got Stralman from Calgary. But yes, they have loved him the most of any defensemen their whole lives. You’re such a fucking turd, it’s sad.
October 16th, 2009 at 9:04 am
Cox has an upbeat assessment of the Leafs today(go figure…meds maybe)
http://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey/nhl/mapleleafs/article/711119–cox-leafs-future-not-so-bleak
Just realized this guy isnt always Leafs negative,hes just smugly contrarian.
Oh,and Andrew…nice blog.Think you summed up many of the naysayers feelings quite nicely,with only a few minor quibbles.
Glad to see someone here take the blue coloured glasses off.
October 16th, 2009 at 9:28 am
I know its been beaten to death,but the one key element that has most of us so down this early is the Kessel trade.
The season wouldnt look so bleak if we had a Taylor Hall countdown on,and lots of trades to mull over until February.
Even if Kessel is the second coming,most people,including Cox,neglect to mention that we are paying him star money right off the bat,without the luxury of getting the few years cheap service of a kid like Hall.
That is huge in the salary cap era.
And all this talk about playing youth too early…look around the league and its the young players making the biggest impacts.
Stalman,Bozak and even Hanson are mature by current league standards.
They showed they derserve a shot in pre-season,and while there would be a learning curve,most of us yearn to see them given a fulltime shot….Not the Pogge yo-yo treatment.
But Burke has sent mixed messages,and must be feeling the need to win now….Hence Coxs caveat of not trading the fairly bright future for a quick fix.
There is no substitute for a proper rebuild in the cap era,and Burkes acceleration of the model has brought the pressure to bear squarely on himself.
October 16th, 2009 at 12:06 pm
@ Uncle Otis
In the few email exchanges I have had with Cox, he has been an enjoyable person to talk to. He is confusing though, sometimes you could swear they had a million monkeys pounding on a typewriter and sometimes you say, hey this guy can write a good article.
October 16th, 2009 at 12:42 pm
@ Charlie – thank you for your insightful comments and feedback – and for your obvious intentions coming to light.. so, first you whine about my lack of interaction, then you resort to calling me a “fucking fool”.. honestly Charlie, get a life.. please, for your own sake, I am begging you.. I will only address 1 other comment of yours, and after that, I will simply let things play out organically and naturally.. if Im wrong, Im wrong – wont be the first or the last time.. eitherway, I assure you that I will not ever need to call you a “fucking fool” – as you have clearly demonstrated that all on your own…
>>
“Oh wait, you think you’re cool cause ” I was speaking to a scout with the Blue Jackets earlier today”. Talking to your mom and her telling you how smart you are doesn’t count.”
>>
Its not about “cool”… I speak to 100s of people in hockey on a continual basis.. people at all levels of hockey and in all sorts of organizations and positions. These are all business contacts and discussions (ie they are customers of ours – ie sites like ww.hinotesheroes.org and literally 100s to 1000s of others related to hockey in some capacity or another).. I rarely, if ever though even discuss hockey with them and even when I do, I rarely (very rarely) will make reference to them in my blogs or my posts.. this one was just relevant.. this is not about being “cool”.. this is just about discussing hockey.. Next time you want to be a complete ass, please do so more intelligently..
October 16th, 2009 at 2:01 pm
@ Andrew
I was polite up to the point where you turned the tone. Once you set the tone into a personal level, stuff like that pisses me off. So yeah, I’ll call you all those because that’s what you are. A hypocritical fuck.
As for not being an intelligent ass. Sorry I’m not up to your standards of an ass. I do believe you have the market on that.
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Interesting to note that you don’t address the point of my comment. a- you realize you’re wrong and have nothing to say. b- your true side is showing and you really only are interested in the name calling. Either way, like I said, a hypocritical fuck.
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No offense, I could care less if you respond to my comments. Your lack of factual rebuttals spoke volumes.
October 16th, 2009 at 3:50 pm
wow Charlie… I have re-read my posts just to make sure, and there is no “tone” that any ethical standard would justify your language and response. Obviously you disagree with my assessments, and that is your perogative, but, I stand by my comments – and time will prove them right or wrong (and eitherway, it will not impact me in the least – this is just a blog and just my opinions – does not mean I am right about or that I am wrong).. how on earth though this generated this sort of emotional response? This is exactly why many bloggers will not respond to comments or interact, because, unless you agree with the masses, the masses will ultimately result to flagrant name calling and outright juvenile and cowardly behaviour… I am not rebutting your points, factual or otherwise as it is clearly impossible for us to converse. One word of advise though Sir, acting in the manner you are acting, on an internet board is an embarassment to yourself.. Though, I guess this is the power of being anonymous on an internet board.. you can speak and act in a way you dare not in a clearly frustrated real life, as there are zero repurcussions here.. take the advise or leave it, it is up to you..
October 16th, 2009 at 5:39 pm
POT
October 16th, 2009 at 8:40 pm
yes please!
October 17th, 2009 at 2:22 am
@Charlie
Some people may find emotion in your writing, but your constant slagging should be an embarrassment to yourself. It takes some guts to write things that are controversial, but from what I read and re-read, Andrew backed up his thoughts with reasoning. Whether you agree with it or not is irrelevant, but there is every indication of good writing and insight on Andrew’s part.
Perhaps, MySpace or Bebo would be more up your alley.
@Andrew
I was obviously thinking about what you had said after our atrocious game tonight about the Leafs and I have to think I’m fairly unbiased when it comes to the Leafs as I’m by no means a fan. Of course I’ve agreed through our discussions about the potential shown in Strallman and Kronwall, only to be developed by another team and reap the fruitions later, by stable systems in other organizations.
My ideal framework for organizations is a baseball mentality. Hockey, generally, could get away with signings and such in the past, to some degree. Today’s environment dicates things a little differently.
I read in one person’s posting that they would like to build a team from the goalie first and work your way out from there.
Ridiculous! There is certainly exceptional goaltending out there, but team system in front of the goaltender is biggest influenence on winning the Jennings Trophy. It’s not the 90′s anymore and Bill Ranford in his prime today would never win a Conn Smythe.
Back to the baseball mentality. Sure, it’s flawed somewhat, with the differences in things like team chemistry and such, but in a development point of view; it’s simply the way to go.
The Leafs seemed to be on some sort of track that made me almost consider the proposition of Leafs contending for a Cup. In true Leafs, lack of any sort of patience, fashion they went ahead and sold the farm again. Where is the game plan? Where is the blue print? They were developing guys to peak at similar times in the future and now, once again, there will be a hodge podge of players at different points of development being put into roles that won’t allow them to succeed. They need to stock the farm team, set up the Marlies to play the same style as the Leafs. Call-ups would eventually be seamless. This takes patience however, but once it’s in place there is a standard and a lack of team gaps.
I never knew how good of a drafter that JFJ was, until you pointed out the picks and I was blown away! That is extraordinary for the Leafs! Lack of personality and patience showed his way to the door quickly. The Minnesota Twins stock the farm system, they draft well, and they can’t even play on an even playing surface as the rest of the league, because they don’t spend money. They do however, spend money in the right areas for their long term success and that is in the minors and in scouting. They contend and contend and contend. The Leafs could take a page out of there book and in 5 years do more than contend, but alas, trades for guys like Tom Kurvers and John Kordic seem to continue. Mortgage the future for short term gain. It’s just like in investing; everyone wants to panic, but the ‘buy and hold’ strategy outperforms every time.
I look forward to enjoying the 2013 season where one or both of Kronwall and Strallman are succeeding as a top level defenceman, and the Detroit Red Wings continue to draw from a stocked farm system, allowing them to be the perennial contenders that the Leafs are too short-sighted to be.
(I had to throw the Red Wings comment in there…)
Go Torpeto!
October 18th, 2009 at 8:14 am
@ Andrew
So read them again. You were the one to cross over into the name calling. Once you cross it, now yo uwant to set the limit to how far over it’s crossed? Doesn’t work that way. If you don’t like how far it’s gone, don’t cross it to begin with. You can read all my posts and the vast majority are normal posts with some intelligence (I like to think that last part). The only times I resort to directing expletives at others is when they cross that line first. Obviously there are some exceptions, but I try to treat others with respect as long as that is directed back at me. And I’m not talking about a heated debate or calling someone’s trade idea ridiculous, etc…
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I do wonder why you deleted part of your posts? Interesting….
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You have yet to respond with any factual rebuttals, as I said before. You want to try again this time without crossing the line, then no problem.
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1) You said that Stralman is going to be Kaberle, production-wise. I questioned your ability to state his production abilities when he has yet to show that he is capable of that. You didn’t say that is what you think he will produce like, rather that he WILL produce that. That isn’t factual.
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2) You stated that Stralman is excelling on Columbus. I pointed out that his stats are (and this is slightly updated since he played another game) not indicative of that. He played 4 games, has 1 goal and is a -1. That is exactly what his career production has been. Prior to this season he had 22 NHL points in 88 NHL games. Again, your point wasn’t factual. It was actually quite erroneous.
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3) I said that it has been well-documented that Columbus needs blueline help. I told you that it isn’t me who formed this opinion rather what I had read. I pointed out that a big problem for them was teir power play. Last year their pp was 12.7%, good for last in the league. All you said in response was that if that’s a weak defense, you would love for Toronto to have them… and obviously it’s not weak since they made the playoffs. Again, I stated facts and backed it up and you… well you didn’t have much to say. So again, you were not factual.
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4) You said how Sutter said how Stralman was the best defender on the ice for one of Calgary’s pre-season games. I told you how Calgery’s top 5 defenders weren’t playing in the game. Even more so, Calgary turned around and traded him for a third. You had no response to that.
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5) You said how hard it is to watch Kronwall plastering other players since we gave up on him. I told you I had see him get plastered more often than plastering. Looking at his stats, he has 5 hits in 5 games. Not exactly inspiring. If anything, his production should be what your pointing out, as he has 1 goal, 2 assists and 0 over 5 games. Again, your comments were not factual.
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Am I missing anything? I would love to hear your rebuttals for my points. The floor is yours.
October 18th, 2009 at 9:10 pm
Charlie, can you please show me where I insulted you? the only people I insulted are those that point out spelling mistakes in a blog.. and I will continue to point out to those that behave this way, whether it is in reference to one of my blogs, or someone elses, that a blog, by definition, is not supposed to be editorialized, and the occassional spelling or gramatical error is to be expected… You have NOT been insulted, and certainly were never referred to with expletive deletives or anything that resembled an insult to any rational person – therefore, your responses have been unwarranted, and your excuse for said responses is also unfounded and misleading..
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As for the rest of your comments, they are irrelevant at best, however, since you seem to have an erection over my Stralman comments.. the point is simple.. he has played his way onto the top4 of a playoff team in the western conference.. this, in my opinion, is an indication of having excelled comparative to where he was with Toronto.. you want to debate that point, then by all means, please do so.. your other points are absolutely ridiculous and at best objective in nature.. you really want to debate these points? drop me an email at andrew[at]cartika.com and we can discuss this, as both of our times permit.. but, whether you agree with me or not, you have gone over the deep end here, and for no reason what so ever – other then disagreeing with me.. maybe you should be a little less sensitive.. each of your points above have some validity, but, my original points and observations and my continued opinion also carry validity.. to respond with profanities, you have already conceded defeat.. if this is something you do not yet realize, that is your issue and not mine.. maybe you should go back to flaming Howard Berger everytime he makes a post.. Howard will not bother responding – and maybe that is the correct path.. but, I am trying to be interactive and trying very hard to be available and accountable.. right or wrong – are you able to step up to this criteria?
October 18th, 2009 at 11:21 pm
1) You deleted where you started the flaming.
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2) Erection over your Stralman comments? Get with the times, man. I’ve got an erection over Stralman… nothing to do with you! Man, some people think the world revolves around them.
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3) Stralman is var from excelling.
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4) Concede defeat is when you have yet to successfully defend your comments. That you did all on your own. Congratulations.
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5) Everything I wrote is factual.
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6) I rarely comment on Berger unless he makes mistakes such as his recent one saying that Gustavsson only filled in for Toskala in the Washington game- leaving out the Sens game.
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7) Again, I welcome your rebuttals. I wrote out my arguments in very easy, numbered points just so you could clearly address them. If you are not able, then no problem. But take it like a man and stop trying to focus on everything else that troubles you.
October 19th, 2009 at 9:26 am
Charlie,
I did not delete a thing.. I have no access to edit comments, etc.. I can just edit my own original blog entry. I cannot edit comments, even my own past the original post.. nor did I start “flaming”..
So, let me see if I understand this correctly.. First you came in and insisted that I interact and suggested it was a “negative” thing to blog and not continue to interact.. you then literally picked a fight with me over my opinion of Stralman and began calling me a “fucking fool” etc and clamied that “I started this fight”.. It then turns out that there is nothing there for you to actually be that upset about, and when you realize it, you suggest that I edited out the posts which upset you?
Listen Charlie.. if my opinions on a hockey player make you this upset, please stop reading my blogs and my posts..
My refusal to answer your questions is not an indication of any sort of defeat.. there was no fight here except in your own mind, and one you created.. my refusal to answer your questions and continue a dialogue with you sir is strictly rooted in my ultimate desire to not converse with someone like yourself.. is this clear enough for you?
October 19th, 2009 at 10:49 am
@ Andrew
You’re amazing. You really have no answer for me. Your refusal to deal with my comments aren’t because you don’t want to deal with a person like me- you’ve ALREADY TRIED to answer them, however you weren’t successful. You have nothing more to say. Like I said, if you can’t answer, no problem, I understand. People are wrong sometimes.
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And my issue was never with the fact that it was your opinion. You stated yours and I refuted it- my issue is that you continue to go with your opinions, even though they were completely proven wrong. And I wouldn’t call it an opinion- which was another issue- it was how you were stating your opinion as if it’s fact.
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Conclusion of this conversation: I clearly wrote out my points. you have yet to refute them. That’s the bottom line here. You want to say it’s because of how sad you are over what I said, whatever makes you sleep at night. That doesn’t change the fact.
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PS- I still welcome your attempts at refuting and would be more than happy to admit I was wrong- something you are unable to do.
October 20th, 2009 at 12:33 am
@ Charlie.. dude – give it up.. you have proven absolutely nothing.. the fact you have an “issue” with me at all is laughable..
So, first I initiated your hostility and now you cannot show me where? and now this magically disappeared? ok dude – so, you admit to being a total emotional wreck and going off all half cocked for no reason at all??
As for your “points” that you feel prove some grand point and justify your mania.. ok, I will address them.. I will not though debate it further with you, but, I will address your points none the less.. if for nothing else, then a last ditch attempt to actually shut you up (which I imagine is impossible)
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1) You said that Stralman is going to be Kaberle, production-wise. I questioned your ability to state his production abilities when he has yet to show that he is capable of that. You didn’t say that is what you think he will produce like, rather that he WILL produce that. That isn’t factual.
>> yes, I “think” he will produce that.. and based on the information I have on his performance in both the Calgary camp and early on with Columbus.. I feel this will happen.. what isnt factual about this? did you interpret my opinion as a crystal ball and that simply myself stating that this was going to happen meant I had forseen it someplace? it is obviously my opinion.. and any rational person would come to the same conclusion based on what I said and how I said it..
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2) You stated that Stralman is excelling on Columbus. I pointed out that his stats are (and this is slightly updated since he played another game) not indicative of that. He played 4 games, has 1 goal and is a -1. That is exactly what his career production has been. Prior to this season he had 22 NHL points in 88 NHL games. Again, your point wasn’t factual. It was actually quite erroneous.
>> he has excelled in Columbus enough to be given top4 duty and 1st duty PP time, and 18-20 mins a game.. Columbus thinks he has excelled and have placed him in their top4 – and this is a team that made the playoffs last year – and is off to a stellar start, with a stellar record with Stralman in their top4.. what exactly are you trying to say that is different then what I just posted?
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3) I said that it has been well-documented that Columbus needs blueline help. I told you that it isn’t me who formed this opinion rather what I had read. I pointed out that a big problem for them was teir power play. Last year their pp was 12.7%, good for last in the league. All you said in response was that if that’s a weak defense, you would love for Toronto to have them… and obviously it’s not weak since they made the playoffs. Again, I stated facts and backed it up and you… well you didn’t have much to say. So again, you were not factual.
>> Columbus is a playoff team – my perspective is simple – regardless of how “weak” they may be (and after watching the Leafs, especially recently, that term is loose at best when describing a D corps) – Stralman is good enough to play in their top4 .. and regardless of how weak they are, they are better then the Leafs D – quid pro quo – I cannot see why the Leafs were suddenly too good or too deep for him, when a team, presumably much better then the Leafs in all facets of their game, think he is a perfect fit for their top4
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4) You said how Sutter said how Stralman was the best defender on the ice for one of Calgary’s pre-season games. I told you how Calgery’s top 5 defenders weren’t playing in the game. Even more so, Calgary turned around and traded him for a third. You had no response to that.
>> no, Sutter said Stralman was the best PLAYER on the ice – and considering the players that were dressed that game, it was not a small compliment from a hard nosed coach speaking of a player that was apparently “too soft” for Toronto… heres the link http://www.calgarysun.com/sports/hockey/2009/09/18/10971731-sun.html
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5) You said how hard it is to watch Kronwall plastering other players since we gave up on him. I told you I had see him get plastered more often than plastering. Looking at his stats, he has 5 hits in 5 games. Not exactly inspiring. If anything, his production should be what your pointing out, as he has 1 goal, 2 assists and 0 over 5 games. Again, your comments were not factual.
>> are you actually serious with this comment? great, he has some points.. he has also laid out a couple of beauty hits.. I chose to focus on those because that is what he brings, he will likely never be a big point producer, regardless of early season stats..and thats what they wanted him to do – and thats what the Leafs went out and spent big bucks for Komisarek to do.. funny enough, Kronwall has been effective playing that role though with zero penalty minutes on the season, while Komisarek, not so much right? so, my original point, which anyone reading here with any objectivity could see – is simple.. better to keep your own talent, then give them away for nothing and overpay for free agent role players…
are we done now?
October 20th, 2009 at 5:32 am
@ Andrews (obviously)
Like I said, I don’t usually go off without reason- I think you can read over my general posts and see that- so I read over your comments again. I found what set me off and I will admit, it was within what I believe to be ok to say during a debate. The reason it set me off in this case when it usually wouldn’t is because of how frustrating you were about your points and then what you said was kind of the straw that broke the camels back. I do apologize.
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I will be addressing your recent post soon.
October 20th, 2009 at 5:32 am
(Excuse the “s” in your name. I’m still half asleep.
October 20th, 2009 at 11:46 am
1 and 2) You have come to all your production conclusions and excelling conclusions about Stralman based on your “opinion” that he finishes with Kaberle stats. Let me ask you this: if he continues his trend, meaning another 20 points this year, will you still be insisting on these points? Because as of right now, that’s the exact pace he is going. Fact is, he has never produced at more than .25 pts per game. A trend that is still ongoing. How can you say that a- this is called him excelling and b- he will have Kaberle production? All signs point otherwise. And if he excelled on Calgary, why’d they trade him for a third?!?!
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3) I think this is where you are mixed up. Columbus is an excellent defensive team. It’s their offensive production from their blueline that is their weak spot. And again, Scott Howson will be the first to admit this. Nobody doubts Stralman is a talented guy that might or might not be a good or even great player, but as of right now he doesn’t cut it on a lot of top 4 defensemen. Since he is known as an offensive defenseman, he fits in well on the top 4 of Columbus who doesn’t really have that guy since Ron Hainsey left. And he shoots right, which Howson said they needed for their blueline. Not to mention they have a few injuries on d right now, when those are done we’ll see where Stralman fits in.
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4) In that Calgary game that Sutter said Stralman was the best player, there were exactly 7 players on it who are still on the team. Including none of the top 5 dmen. Again, if he was so incredible, then why did they trade him?
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5) Oy. Right over your head. My points comment was made to show you just how irrelevant he has been physically. The fact that he is not known for his points, yet those stats are outdoing his physical stats should be very telling to you. And basing Komisarek’s career over the past 7 games is pretty silly. Look at him overall in compared to Kronwall. I know Kronwall hasn’t had that much NHL experience, but to sya he is better than Komisarek is just dumb. Not to mention how many more minutes Komisarek plays than Kronwall. Why did Washington also agree that Kronwall didn’t fit?
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Andrew, I do truly believe you are the mosy frustrating person to argue with. If you’re going to write a blog, then expect people to argue it. All you did was beat around the bush to all my points and just forced me into presenting it differently. The irony is that your pet peeve involves how people are towards blogs, yet you hate when people question yours, which is one of the very points of these blogs. And it’s real sad that your big goal is just to shut people up rather than see where arguments go and explore the possibility of being wrong. Is that what it is? Do you just hate being wrong?
October 20th, 2009 at 4:43 pm
@Charlie
“@ Andrews (obviously)
Like I said, I don’t usually go off without reason- I think you can read over my general posts and see that- so I read over your comments again. I found what set me off and I will admit, it was within what I believe to be ok to say during a debate. The reason it set me off in this case when it usually wouldn’t is because of how frustrating you were about your points and then what you said was kind of the straw that broke the camels back. I do apologize.”
>>
Good enough man – and thank you.. I am perfectly good with moving on…
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“Andrew, I do truly believe you are the mosy frustrating person to argue with. If you’re going to write a blog, then expect people to argue it.”
I have no issue with arguments.. you do not see me having an issue with anyone else, whether they agree with me or not.. As I said earlier, I think its obvious the 2 of us should not be conversing… maybe we can move forward at this point positively.. would be good for both of us..
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” And it’s real sad that your big goal is just to shut people up rather than see where arguments go and explore the possibility of being wrong. Is that what it is? Do you just hate being wrong?”
Dude, I am wrong all the time.. IF I am wrong here, it wont be the first time, nor the last, I assure you.. But, I do not believe I am wrong about my assessment of the Leafs today, what they need to do to improve and what mistakes the current management group have made.. I am WAY on the record with respect to Stralman.. if I turn out to be wrong, dont worry man, Ill be the very first to say it.. I assure you of that.. But, lets see the next 8-16 months play out before coming to that conclusion.. its not like if Stralman busts, I can suddenly say that I said something different.. Again, I expect the kid to be a good one.. just to be clear, a top4, PP QB type of guy on a good team.. which, by all accounts, is pretty much what Kaberle is today… This is my opinion, this is what I “think” will happen.. its just an opinion man, and everyone is entitled to one.. Again, if I am wrong, I will be front and center admitting it.. if however, he does turn into that legit top4, QB type of specialist, I would hope you would give me the same courtesy.. fair enough?
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On another note, did you hear Mr Murrays comments on Colaiacovo today? I did not bring this up in my blog, as his was a move technically done before Burke.. but, Colaiacovo has been promoted to the top pairing in St Louis and the first PP unit.. he is being referred to as a potential franchise D and a better overall D then anyone else on that roster.. and considering the D St Louis have drafted in the top5 in recent years, this is quite a statement… Just another example of what I am talking about.. short term thinking, not being patient enough with our own prospects and watching them contribute elsewhere.. this is not said to start another debate with you.. I think we can safely say, we agree to disagree.. but, this is the type of thing that drives me nuts and the types of mistakes I am tired of seeing happen… Does this mean Stralman will follow the same path? well, clearly I think so, but, me thinking so, and it happening are 2 different things – and just to be clear.. if Stralman does not pan out, I will not be hard to find and I will not hesitate to admit so.. fair enough?
October 20th, 2009 at 8:34 pm
My issue with your Stralman remarks were how definite you were without anything backing that up. What you’re saying now is definitely something I can agree with. By the way, here’s a good quote regarding the Legein trade from today:
Howson is trying to stockpile defensive prospects who can move the puck and join the rush in hopes of finding one or two that become difference makers at the NHL level.
“We have a long term need of upgrading the puck-moving ability of our defense,” the GM told NHL.com this past summer.
http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=502801
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Can I say I told you so!!
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I agree with you on Carlo. Problem was he was injured so much. But I was a huge fan and was real upset to see him go. Steen, I don’t care, but Carlo I really liked. And funny thing is, you knew if he beat the injuries he would become that guy. It’s a real shame actually. Stralman has yet to show the potential Carlo has- cause Carlo currently is that guy.
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Anyways, been a gas. I’ll see you around.
October 21st, 2009 at 5:15 am
Glad to see we found a happy medium Charlie.. one point though about this comment..
>>
“We have a long term need of upgrading the puck-moving ability of our defense,” the GM told NHL.com this past summer.
http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=502801
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Can I say I told you so!!
>>
No, you cant say that yet.. And of course they have this need.. they only have 1 legitimate puck mover right now, and thats Stralman…
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should read this article that Alex was kind enough to find and post…
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http://www.columbusdispatch.com/live/content/sports/stories/2009/10/20/jackets_10-20.ART_ART_10-20-09_C1_IJFDV3H.html?sid=101
Another point for the young man on the PP again tonight.. drew a penalty in the dieing seconds of the 1st period on a nice rush from behind his own net to the Flames blueline, dumped the puck in deep, chased it hard, made some contact, came away with the puck and threatened to take it to the front of the net, forcing Calgary to pull him down at the buzzer to prevent a scoring chance.. combine this with the way he QB’s the PP, sets up the entire offense, draws defenders and sets up the pass (as he did tonight for a point) or outright hammers the puck to the net (something I wish Kaberle would do) – and he has pretty much rejuvinated their PP to a point where its pretty scary right now and amongst the best in the league since his arrival… well, I am not willing to concede defeat quite yet on this debate if you dont mind
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see you around and look forward to discussing this one again come March…
October 21st, 2009 at 8:16 am
@ Andrew
Your comments and post actually conceded your defeat!
My point was that Stralman made that team because of how badly they needed a puck mover and their defense was weak when it came to that aspect. Turns out, I was right. According to you: “hey only have 1 legitimate puck mover right now, and thats Stralman…”. Correct- meaning before Stralman they had none!! And their pp is rejuvenated more because of others right now- he only has ONE pp point!
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Anyways, we will re-evaluate in March, or earlier if he really shines. I will readily admit I’m wrong. In fact, I kinda prefer that because Columbus is one of my favourite teams so I would love for them to have their own Kaberle. It will sting though.
October 21st, 2009 at 8:46 pm
@ Charlie.. sigh.. you are really hung up on this “Defeat” concept.. you have brought it up several times.. honestly bud, relax.. we wont know the outcome of this argument for awhile.. again, eitherway it turns out, I am fine with it..
… to follow your logic, Toronto needs to draft and develop puck movers.. desparately.. because they only have 1 – in Kaberle (and maybe a 2nd one in White).. who, even though I would have preferred they moved Kaberle and kept Stralman, Kaberle is a good puck mover.. the fact the Leafs organization needs more does not implicitly imply that Kaberle or even White are implicitly bad, etc..
As for Stralman and the Coumbus PP.. he has significantly changed the dynamic of their PP.. the points will continue to come.. I have watched every single Columbus game this year.. the affect Stralman is having is obvious to the GM, coaches and players – and there are more then a few such quotes floating around out there…
Lets just agree to let this sit until March.. and then discuss this again.. this work for you?
October 21st, 2009 at 10:06 pm
Deal.
October 26th, 2009 at 6:57 pm
@ Andrew & Charlie
Glad to see your personal war is over.
Have a hug.
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