Friday Morning Mashup: No No Norris

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It must almost be the offseason, because NHL Awards have once again caused a stir regarding the voting structure and overall legitimacy of the accolades.  Nowhere is this more apparent than with the Norris Trophy, where the Montreal Canadiens’ PK Subban won out by a hair over Minnesota Wild’s Ryan Suter.  He did so despite the words, “awarded to the defense player who demonstrates throughout the season the greatest all-around ability in the position” right on the darn trophy.  Alas, with the results of the past two seasons, the statement about ‘all-around ability’ is looking demonstrably untrue for Norris voting.

Earlier in the year, I made an impassioned case that Dion Phaneuf’s numbers were quite worthy of a Norris nomination.  While Phaneuf ultimately fell off the point scoring pace to warrant a nomination, the piece articulated the make-up of a Norris-calibre defender.  Phaneuf fit the profile of a nominee for the award in the mould of Zdeno Chara or Shea Weber.  I put forward Subban’s name as a contender for the trophy in April for this reason below.

The award praises exceptionality by a defenseman, even at the expense of good defense.  Offensive exceptionality will suffice to make up for poorer competition numbers, high offensive zone starts (which encourage better offensive numbers), and a high PDO.  Mike Green came second in Norris voting in consecutive seasons probably because he was getting five minutes of ice time a game on a then-stellar Washington power play.

As the nominations and votes showed, Subban edged out Suter, while the oft-injured but high-scoring Kris Letang played the role of also-ran.  And, boy, was Subban’s offense exceptional among his peers.  He tied Letang for the league lead in points with 38 (11 goals, 27 assists) in 42 games.  He finished second in goal scoring and second in power play goals (behind partner Andrei Markov).  He finished second on the team in points, propelling the high-octane Habs to second play in the Eastern Conference before ultimately getting handled by the Ottawa Senators in five playoff games.

Extrapolated over an 82-game season, PK would have recorded 74 points, not far off Erik Karlsson’s totals for the Senators last season when he won the Norris Trophy.  He did well better than Phaneuf, whose 28 points were good enough for a top 10 finish and some faint praise for it.  But in terms of all around ability to defend against the league’s elite? I’d give the advantage to Phaneuf.

This isn’t to say that Phaneuf had a better season than Subban or should have won the Norris instead.  He shouldn’t have, but the Leaf captain deserved better than his 11th place finish with his terrific two-way performance this season.  While they were both the top defensemen on their respective teams, their utilization this season were worlds apart.  Subban’s was far more exceptional to the naked eye, but Phaneuf was a true leader of a defense corps.

All that said it should also be appreciated how one dimensional Subban’s offense and subsequent game was.  26 of his 38 points came on the power play, roughly 68% of his total for the year.  And while Subban has always been a terrific special teams’ contributor, it’s a huge spike compared to his production the two previous seasons.  Put into some perspective, in 2011-12 Karlsson managed to record only 28 of his 78 points on the man advantage, about half Subban’s rate.  (Karlsson also had 5 game winning goals to Subban’s zero, suggesting a slightly more impactful goal scoring touch).

Indeed, when compared against each other, Karlsson looks a lot less specialized and more consistent on offense than Subban does.  Karlsson’s also more worthy of being deemed the most dominant defender league-wide, to me anyway, since the significant majority of the game is played at evens.

Of course, the other side of Subban’s game… defense… well, he’s no Chara or Weber, and certainly no Phaneuf.  According to www.behindthenet.ca, Subban skated his way to a Norris on 23 papery soft minutes a night of work.  He started 53% of his shifts in the offensive zone, and did so against some of the softest competition among defenders league wide.  Subban appeared to benefit and control the flow of play against the second and third lines of most teams.  When Coach Michel Therrien had options for the league’s 23rd ranked shorthanded unit, he’d play Josh Gorges, Raphael Diaz, Alexei Emelin or Andrei Markov ahead of Subban, witnessed by his meagre 1:38 of shorthanded ice time per game.   Hard to be considered ‘all around’ when you’re not relied upon for the toughest assignments.

As it relates to Phaneuf’s season with the Maple Leafs, his usage was a lot simpler than Subban’s.  And a lot dirtier.  Under Randy Carlyle as with Ron Wilson before him, he was the first choice in every situation.  First power play; first PK unit; in the last minute of play.  He did so against the league’s best in putting the puck on net, evidenced by his league-leading 3.173 Corsi Quality of Competition score.  And despite nearly three and a half minutes on the power play a night, Phaneuf’s utilization was far more defense-minded, witnessed by his 41.3% Offensive zone starts at even strength.  Beyond that, he was tops on the Leafs defense corps with three minutes of penalty kill time per night on the league’s second best unit, roughly twice as much time as Subban.

I’d further conjecture that a lot of the high marks given to Subban’s 2013 season are coming from the accelerated returns of terrific linemates.  Subban and Markov combined for 15 goals and 49 points on the power play.  No two defenders on the same team came anywhere close to those astonishing numbers, precious few forwards.  This isn’t to suggest that Subban was riding anyone’s coattails, but Phaneuf certainly didn’t spend nearly five minutes a game on the power play with a perennial all-star on the other point.

To reiterate: this isn’t to say that Phaneuf had a better season than Subban.  What I am saying is that context matters when it comes to evaluating the scope and value of defenders.   PK Subban was slotted into an offensive role, and excelled offensively in 2013.  Dion Phaneuf was thrust into a much different shutdown role, and yet still made admirable contributions offensively.  Who was better at scoring shouldn’t matter as much as it appears to for a defensive award, with both the Norris and Selke trophies guilty of this.

From the games and score sheet, I know which guy I’d rather have on the power play as opposed to the penalty kill.  I also know who I’d rather have on the ice in the last minute of play, tied or carrying a lead.  Yet these choices also dictate the box stats and, thusly, the hardware at end of season.

So as a brief mental exercise, let’s consider role reversal.  How would Phaneuf do flanking a first rate offensive defenseman?  With more than a minute of extra power play time? Against third liners?  With more starts in the offensive zone?  How would Subban do carrying Mike Kostka and getting shelled from the league’s top forwards while 4-on-5?  Phaneuf’s 2008 Norris nomination, on the strength of a 60-point season, suggests that he would find Subban’s role a far smoother transition than the reverse.

Ultimately, what it really says is that the current structure of NHL Award voting is extremely flawed (for the most hilarious holes poked in the process, go here).  PK Subban is the best defenseman in 2013 for being an amazing special teams rover.  He didn’t even really have the best offensive numbers for his position, either, what with an injured Letang tying Subban in points in seven fewer games.   Ultimately, the healthiest, highest scoring defender with a incomplete game won the award.

Regardless of your thoughts on the Norris, or the waning merit of the trophies in general, I think we can all agree that it’ll be hilarious when PK Subban gets an 8-year, $60-Million-plus deal next summer.

 

Links:

Anthony Petrielli wonders if the management’s rumoured pursuit of Jonathan Bernier is to reduce James Reimer’s workload.

SkinnyFish at PPP continues the long series of Carlyle Coaching Myths.

Steve Dangle at the Leafs Nation with the scandal sheet on what NHLers were earning for their services in the KHL during the lockout.  Looks like Lupes took home a decent chunk of change for nine games effort.

TSN brings you up-to-date info on the offseason’s biggest story: Lindy Ruff Watch.  The Dallas Stars just seem to love wily veterans, eh?

Ryan Kennedy of The Hockey News with some Boom or Bust draft eligible for next weekend’s (wait, what?) NHL entry draft.

James Mirtle of the Globe with some more background info on the 2015/2017 World Juniors in Montreal/Toronto.

  • Doorman

    First!!!

  • Doorman

    PK Looks good in frog Land!!!  They Can Keep Him!!!

    • http://i.imgur.com/MyKj5C3.gif ingy56

      Doorman Are you all high and dry out there Doorman?

      • Doorman

        ingy56 Doorman Ive got a 24 for an emergency life raft!!!  Lol

        • http://i.imgur.com/MyKj5C3.gif ingy56

          Doorman ingy56 Cool…I thought you may have started the flooding by having a rendezvous with a Bingo Babe on a retaining wall!

        • Doorman

          ingy56 Doorman Na!  I never make it further then the parking lot!!!  lol

        • http://i.imgur.com/MyKj5C3.gif ingy56

          Doorman ingy56 Haha…perfect.

        • Bobsyouruncle

          Doorman ingy56  Row, row, row your house, Gently down the stream……

  • MaxwellHowe

    Zdeno Chara is the best defenceman in the league.  Deep down inside, everyone knows this.

    • Dink

      MaxwellHowe I don’t think he is, Duncan Keith

      • MaxwellHowe

        @Dink MaxwellHowe I agree Keith is better than Subban, probably second best in the league, but Chara is #1 IMHO.

  • LeafsForLife

    Great job Micheal! I think you should say that Subban didnt deserve the trophy. Maybe Dion did or didnt but certainly subban didnt deserve it. All the proof is in what you wrote.
    Seeing that picture above, reminds me how much im going to miss Leo! Hopefully the Leafs will get us another Leo or close to it this year. We definitely need one or three!

  • http://i.imgur.com/MyKj5C3.gif ingy56

    Any award that is based upon votes from the likes of Steve Simmons and Damien Cox has zero validity for me. If the NHL awards were voted upon by the players peers or a panel of former players I would deem the results to be far more legitimate.

  • http://i.imgur.com/MyKj5C3.gif ingy56

    https://twitter.com/RenLavoieRDShttps://twitter.com/RenLavoieRDS/status/348073514340859904
    Lindy Ruff is now the new head coach of the Dallas Stars.

  • http://i.imgur.com/MyKj5C3.gif ingy56

    https://twitter.com/tpanotchCSNhttps://twitter.com/tpanotchCSN/status/348014076057763840
    Raising the stakes on Bernier: http://t.co/NH5S7jmYk4
    Leafs upping the ante apparently.

    • Dink

      ingy56 oh no

    • Dink

      ingy56 oh no

    • Komas Taberle

      ingy56 Frattin and a second I hope, no 1st rounder please.
      We would have great goaltending with both Reimer and Bernier

      • Dink

        Komas Taberle ingy56  I must be the only one that likes Frattin

        • Komas Taberle

          @Dink Komas Taberle ingy56 Everyone is against the trade for Bernier, I happen to think he will be a stud goalie in a year or 2,I mean stud like Rinne or Lundquist who can win games by himself, we are getting him at a discount right now. Frattin can be replaced by Clarkson.

        • http://i.imgur.com/MyKj5C3.gif ingy56

          Komas Taberle ingy56 If they feel they have to upgrade the goaltending there are plenty of UFA options out there that will not cost assets.

        • Komas Taberle

          ingy56 Komas Taberle Ingy I don’t think there is a goalie who is out there that has the potential of Bernier, he is going to be a difference maker.

        • http://i.imgur.com/MyKj5C3.gif ingy56

          Komas Taberle ingy56 Yes there is, his name is Reimer. Get a solid vet to back him up and possibly be a mentor. Then they can use assets to fill other needs.

        • Biltmore

          @Dink Komas Taberle ingy56 
          I love Frattin, no way do I hope he goes for Bernier.

    • Komas Taberle

      ingy56 Frattin and a second I hope, no 1st rounder please.
      We would have great goaltending with both Reimer and Bernier

  • http://i.imgur.com/MyKj5C3.gif ingy56

    https://twitter.com/JoshRimerHockeyhttps://twitter.com/JoshRimerHockey/status/348075897628291073
    With Lindy Ruff getting the Job in Dallas, I now expect Vancouver to tab John Tortorella as their new coach in next couple of weeks.

    • http://i.imgur.com/MyKj5C3.gif ingy56

      LN-093 ingy56 Lindy’s no fool and Tippet is supposed to hit the motherlode with his new deal. Can’t wait for the Torts show in Riotland.

      • http://i.imgur.com/MyKj5C3.gif ingy56

        LN-093 ingy56 Over and under for the first “We sucked” presser is three games.

  • LN-093

    canuckintheuk TheCanucksnaphook Here’s the interesting part.  What would we get for Reimer?  I imagine lots.  Maybe Nonis is looking Bernier because he got an offer he can’t refuse for Reims.

  • http://i.imgur.com/MyKj5C3.gif ingy56

    canuckintheuk TheCanucksnaphook Kings need cap room though I believe, Grabo would be too expensive for them methinks.

  • MaxwellHowe

    canuckintheuk TheCanucksnaphook LA has great depth at centre (like all great teams).   Not sure what they would do with Grabbo except use him as a crash test dummy for checking drills

  • MaxwellHowe

    canuckintheuk TheCanucksnaphook Or Scrivens – though I don’t think Scrivens is sufficiently proven to get much attention.  No, maybe you’re right, maybe there is a plan to trade Reimer, which is too bad because his work wthic and attitude are incredible.  I wonder if they blame Reimer for the infamous collapse. And i am not inviting more analysis of the coallpase.

  • MaxwellHowe

    LN-093 canuckintheuk TheCanucksnaphook I still think the Isles will be Bernier’s destination.  They have the most in terms of assets to pass along.

  • LeafsForLife

    hmmmm…still cant vote.

  • Komas Taberle

    canuckintheuk MaxwellHowe TheCanucksnaphook If we do get Bernier, I bet you that reimer is moved within a year, Bernier is going to be a stud goalie and we will get something good for Reimer.

  • MaxwellHowe

    canuckintheuk MaxwellHowe TheCanucksnaphook Yeah, maybe there is something bigger brewing, even a trade for the Flames or Oilers 1st rounders (the Flames may very well be starting the season with Joey macDonald in goal – desperation thy name is Feaster.)

  • http://i.imgur.com/MyKj5C3.gif ingy56

    TheCanucksnaphook that scares the shit out of me.

    • MaxwellHowe

      ingy56 TheCanucksnaphook All the Leafs need is our own Charles Wang – non-hockey guys calling the shots.

      • http://i.imgur.com/MyKj5C3.gif ingy56

        MaxwellHowe ingy56 TheCanucksnaphook Fack…just got rid of Peddie and now this? I hope he stays the hell out of the way.

      • mcloki

        TheCanucksnaphook ingy56 MaxwellHowe Might as well put us in charge..

      • MaxwellHowe

        TheCanucksnaphook ingy56 MaxwellHowe A well-meaning non-prickish Harold Ballard.

      • LeafsForLife

        canuckintheuk TheCanucksnaphook ingy56 MaxwellHowe Maybe its Alec lol.

      • MaxwellHowe

        LN-093 MaxwellHowe TheCanucksnaphook ingy56 Fair point, fair point.

    • wendelsfist

      ingy56 TheCanucksnaphook I didn’t think of this.  But Lewieke can be to the leafs what Eakins will be to the oilers in requesting players.

  • Komas Taberle

    MaxwellHowe canuckintheuk TheCanucksnaphook And LA will not be trading Bernier to anyone in their conference, in fact I read somewhere that part of the deal is a gentlemens agreement that Bernier can’t be traded to LAs conference. That’s how good this guy is!

  • http://i.imgur.com/MyKj5C3.gif ingy56

    https://twitter.com/GlennStreethttps://twitter.com/GlennStreet/status/348076919016792065
    Saddledome is flooded, below the light is a ramp to drive down to arena floor. https://twitter.com/search?q=%23ABFlood&src=hash https://twitter.com/search?q=%23YYC&src=hash https://twitter.com/search?q=%23yycflood&src=hash http://t.co/MS9NFwP6bC

    • http://i.imgur.com/MyKj5C3.gif ingy56

      TheCanucksnaphook ingy56 Turn a negative into a positive…hold a boat show at the Saddledome.

    • mcloki

      ingy56 Are many people hurt? I hope not. Keep safe.

      • http://i.imgur.com/MyKj5C3.gif ingy56

        mcloki ingy56 Major evacuations but I really don’t know about injuries yet. Doorman checked in earlier and he’s high and dry apparently.

      • mcloki

        TheCanucksnaphook mcloki And it’s Canada. They’ll get the help they need as quickly as possible. We only hate they sports teams, but we love Albertans. Tell us what you need.

    • phaneufoundlander

      aah, you read my mind phooker… :)

  • MaxwellHowe

    Komas Taberle MaxwellHowe canuckintheuk TheCanucksnaphook Gentleman’s agreements between these GMs? LMAO

  • Komas Taberle

    LN-093 Gilbey93 canuckintheuk TheCanucksnaphook with a much higher ceiling

  • LeafsForLife

    I guess getting Bernier is better than getting Luongo? Personally i would say much better! I would not want any present Leafs playing for the canucks. That would truly suck. Not to mention all the issues of contract etc etc.

    • http://i.imgur.com/MyKj5C3.gif ingy56

      LeafsForLife I just wonder about trading assets for a goaltender, where if you feel you have to upgrade you can get a decent UFA instead. All this hysteria about Bernier’s higher ceiling is untested. They look poised to lose Bozak, MacA and possibly Frattin. They don’t have the depth to do this and pick up where they left off last season.

      • LeafsForLife

        ingy56 LeafsForLife Well i would take bernier over luongo if its a choice between the two. And i believe there are a few players out there available july 5th that can play a similar style of matt frattin, i love frattin but sometimes we have to take one step back to get 2 steps ahead. Someone mentioned maybe a 2nd deal involving riemer is in the works. So its sort of a win-win scenario.

        • http://i.imgur.com/MyKj5C3.gif ingy56

          LeafsForLife ingy56 I look at Reimer’s mental toughness as a real strength to playing in this town. He may show the “aw-shucks” side of his personality, and it’s totally genuine, but he definitely has the ability to let the sideshow shit that will always exist in Toronto to roll right off him.

        • LeafsForLife

          ingy56 LeafsForLife I agree with you there. And thus far, Bernier is not tested in a hockey crazed city like T.O. so we really dont know how he would respond to the pressures and craziness that comes with playing for the Leafs. But i suspect if the Leafs are raising the ante, there is a deal and possibly more than 1 to look forward to. Bernier has had the experience of last years SC win so its something he would hopefully have grown from.

        • LeafsForLife

          ingy56 LeafsForLife I agree with you there. And thus far, Bernier is not tested in a hockey crazed city like T.O. so we really dont know how he would respond to the pressures and craziness that comes with playing for the Leafs. But i suspect if the Leafs are raising the ante, there is a deal and possibly more than 1 to look forward to. Bernier has had the experience of last years SC win so its something he would hopefully have grown from.

        • http://i.imgur.com/MyKj5C3.gif ingy56

          LN-093 ingy56 LeafsForLife Hmm, I think Reimer’s as competitive as they get and Price isn’t intimidating anyone these days. If anything, Price looks like he’s disconnected and unmotivated .

        • LeafsForLife

          LN-093 ingy56 LeafsForLife Lol Red Light Price as opposed to Red Light Racicot. I remember him. He intimidated shooters in that they would be “blinded by the light.”

        • LeafsForLife

          LN-093 ingy56 LeafsForLife Lol Red Light Price as opposed to Red Light Racicot. I remember him. He intimidated shooters in that they would be “blinded by the light.”

        • MaxwellHowe

          LN-093 ingy56 LeafsForLife Yeah, I like my goalies to be crazy pricks as well.  Belfour, Roy, Hextall, Billy Smih, Price (a little), Miller, Hasek.  All a bit nuts.

        • MaxwellHowe

          LN-093 ingy56 LeafsForLife Yeah, I like my goalies to be crazy pricks as well.  Belfour, Roy, Hextall, Billy Smih, Price (a little), Miller, Hasek.  All a bit nuts.

        • Pent_House

          LeafsForLife I think it would be a 2nd deal to move Scrivens

        • LeafsForLife

          Pent_House LeafsForLife Not sure they can really keep Riemer with Bernier. It was like they couldnt keep Cujo and The Cat. One of them had to go, unfortunately.

        • Pent_House

          LeafsForLife Why not? Reimer’s only making 1.8M and Bernier won’t make that much more than Scrivens. I rather have two potential #1’s on my team, until one of them really shows up the other.

        • Burtonboy

          Pent_House LeafsForLife Bernier makes 1.5 right now unless you think he’s going to re-sign for 600,000
          http://www.capgeek.com/player/1032

        • Pent_House

          Burtonboy For his efforts currently he won’t get more than 2.5M on a new deal I would think. At the end of the day, our combined goalies salaries won’t even be 5M, which is more than fine. For some reason I was thinking Scrivens was making 1.3M.

        • Burtonboy

          Pent_House Burtonboy Jesus who in their right mind pays a back up goalie 2.5 when you have a cap that’s going down. Are the Leafs trading Reimer I wonder. If they are its a hell of a gamble to take

        • Pent_House

          LN-093 It’s not like that would be Bernier’s choice. He’s RFA, he’s got no leverage nothing. If we do get him, I’m expecting Reimer and Bernier to split the starts, which would still be way more than Bernier has gotten in his career thus far work-load wise in the NHL. I say let them duke it out, and best goalie wins.

        • rustynail

          Pent_House LeafsForLife Scrivens is making 600K Bernier made 1.5 LAST season and will be asking for more. Ripe for an offer sheet from say Calgary.

        • Pent_House

          Burtonboy It’s not like Bernier would be the back-up playing 10-15 games. They’d both probably play around 40 games each. Some teams have 5M in one goalie, so having less than that is fine for a team’s salary structure.

        • Pent_House

          LN-093 There wouldn’t be a number 1, we’d have a tandem, like Neuvirth and Holtby etc. At the end of the day, if both goalies play 40 games, it’s gives one of them a chance to take the #1. I don’t think either goalie would be just given that position because he wants it. In LA he didn’t have the chance to take it, in Toronto he will have the chance.

        • Burtonboy

          Pent_House Burtonboy The only way I see thsi deal making even the slightest bit of sense is the Leafs must be moving on from Reimer for some reason.

        • Pent_House

          Burtonboy I don’t know, I think it’s an upgrade on Scrivens, but you might be right. It’s tough to say.

        • Pent_House

          LN-093 That maybe how you view the situation, not the Leafs. Why would it be toxic, there are tandems all around the league and they work fine. You think Scrivens doesn’t want the number 1 job too? Should that situation be toxic as well? I don’t see anything wrong with two great young goalies pushing each other, and battling for the number 1 spot.

        • ProfessorRance

          LN-093 Pent_House Playing 40 games compared to 16 is more of an opportunity. And who is to say that Reimer doesnt get injured for any length of time?

        • Bobsyouruncle

          LN-093 LeafsForLife ingy56 I like Reimer but I can’t see us getting a lot for Reimer at this stage of his career.

        • Pent_House

          LN-093 Yea I did, obviously it doesn’t work every time, but it seems to turn toxic when you have two legit proven #1 guys, but these two goalies are young and still haven’t established themselves like that. Reimer has proven a lot, but his health is still in question, and he hasn’t put together a 60+ start season since 06. These are valid questions. There’s no proof or evidence for it to be a good situation or a bad situation, so assuming it will be bad from the jump is just negative think. For all you know, they embrace the competition and push each other to be better and they become a great tandem for the season.

        • ProfessorRance

          LN-093 ProfessorRance Pent_House I still think we could have both. Both goalies are unproven and young. They can grow with this team. Draft a goalie this year so that we will have at least two good goaltending prospects in the pipe and we should be just fine on the backend. 
          I think it’s a better way to go than to trade within division for lets say Miller.

        • Pent_House

          LN-093 You’re taking one line from one article and running with it. You don’t now exactly what he said, or how he’d react in  a different situation. Even requesting, not demading a trade, he has stayed around for two years, and was a good team guy. I think you have this whole situation in your head negatively and you won’t give it any other chance to be something else. I’m pretty sure Bernier would be happy to compete for the spot, and play 40 games this season, which would be more than he’s ever played in one season by a long-shot. I don’t think any goalie who has never been the #1 can reasonably expect to have it handed to him. In LA he never got the chance to compete for that, while here he would, not much more a goalie can ask for.

        • Pent_House

          LN-093 You’re taking one line from one article and running with it. You don’t now exactly what he said, or how he’d react in  a different situation. Even requesting, not demading a trade, he has stayed around for two years, and was a good team guy. I think you have this whole situation in your head negatively and you won’t give it any other chance to be something else. I’m pretty sure Bernier would be happy to compete for the spot, and play 40 games this season, which would be more than he’s ever played in one season by a long-shot. I don’t think any goalie who has never been the #1 can reasonably expect to have it handed to him. In LA he never got the chance to compete for that, while here he would, not much more a goalie can ask for.

        • Bobsyouruncle

          rustynail Pent_House LeafsForLife The problem with the Calgary offer sheet idea is they don’t have their 2nd round pick this year. Can’t imagine they want to pay him more than $3.3M or give up the 7th overall + 3rd rounder it would take.

        • rustynail

          Bobsyouruncle rustynail Pent_House LeafsForLife compensation is from next year’s draft free agency starts after the draft this year.

        • Bobsyouruncle

          rustynail Bobsyouruncle Pent_House LeafsForLife Shit, forgot that. lol  Okay, carry on Calgary.

        • Pent_House

          LN-093 Because it would be a much better situation than the one he’s currently in if he’s got aspirations to be a number one. I’m sure he’d be way happier playing 40 games or more this season with the Leafs as opposed to playing 10-20 games with the Kings.

        • Bobsyouruncle

          Pent_House LN-093 Maybe not his first choice but have to agree. Having a shot to compete with Reimer is a lot better than sitting behind a goalie (Quick) who looks like he’s settled in for the next 10 years.

        • rustynail

          Bobsyouruncle Pent_House LN-093 but not as good as competing in Calgary :)

        • Bobsyouruncle

          rustynail Bobsyouruncle Pent_House LN-093 Good with me. I just want this shit to go away.

      • Pent_House

        ingy56 The first two are replaceable but losing Frattin in trade hurts a lot. I think this kid will be a perrenial 20 goal guy at least. We’re going to have to bank on signing Clarkson, and a couple Marlies players graduating.

    • Burtonboy

      canuckintheuk LeafsForLife Is Bernier eligible for arbitration this yr ?

  • Komas Taberle

    Gilbey93 LN-093 canuckintheuk TheCanucksnaphook In my opinion and I have watched Bernier alot, he is better post to post, he is better controlling rebounds, he has a better glove hand, he is better at handling the puck. This is what management sees, he is the goalie we need to go forward.Then we trade Reimer for a really good return .

  • phaneufoundlander

    Whats the beat on the street today folks?

    • Komas Taberle

      phaneufoundlander Leafs are front runners for Bernier.

      • phaneufoundlander

        really? what are we giving up?

        • Komas Taberle

          phaneufoundlander Don’t know but supposedly we upped our bid and scared off Philly.

        • phaneufoundlander

          so, if this has any traction, I assume Leafs brass arent 100 % in love with Reimers game or are they concerned about Reimer’s injury past?

  • wendelsfist

    I don’t believe the leafs are front runners.  That is what they said for the last few years.  That is a bunch of media based garbage news

    • Komas Taberle

      wendelsfist NBC sports says different but I know what you mean.

    • Tommy Cat

      wendelsfist All the sites throw out the Leafs name in “rumours” just to get hits.  MyNHLtraderumours have stuff up every day with zero comments but then puts up a post about teams (Leafs) that could trade for a bad contract to buy out for a high pick or prospect and they get like 60 comments.  Eklund pops in the Leafs name every chance he gets in his garbage to get hits.  Mostly all negative of course but its still traffic that the sponsors are looking for.

  • rustynail

    https://twitter.com/BruceMcCurdyhttps://twitter.com/BruceMcCurdy/status/348091641975930882
    I can see why Jonathan Bernier trade rumours get traction. He allows way fewer “bad goals at the wrong time” than goalies who actually play.

    • wendelsfist

      rustynail But he doesn’t play that much to know

    • Leafbites

      rustynail In all fairness, he’s behind a Conn Smythe winner on the depth chart.

      • rustynail

        Leafbites rustynail That doesn’t change the fact he has played few games behind a very good defensive team. We also don’t know how he would react to being in TO. Seems like a lot of goalies have trouble in this market and the fishbowl.

        • Leafbites

          rustynail Leafbites I agree, but do you make this decision on the potential of a market-induced implosion? That could be said for any player you take a risk with, draft or otherwise.

  • Pent_House

    Subban for the Norris is definitely suspect. Karlsson at least had the minutes, and it was a good point about their percentage of points coming from the PP. What you gonna do, the trophies have become a joke.

  • LeafsForLife

    Ok im out guys. Bedtime. Working nights really kills my Leafs time. Lata all.

  • Burtonboy

    https://twitter.com/FriedgeHNIC
    Dave Tippett and the Phoenix Coyotes have agreed on a five-year extension. The NHL has approved it, as well.

    • Leafbites

      LN-093 Burtonboy The most viable option for Gillis and his merry band of has-beens, may be P. Maurice. An experienced guy and a player’s coach. I can’t see Gillis going after an up and comer for that job.

    • Burtonboy

      LN-093 Burtonboy He might still go with Stevens from LA

      • rustynail

        Burtonboy LN-093 I am still hoping for Torts

      • Burtonboy

        rustynail Burtonboy LN-093 Me too. LOL

  • rustynail

    https://twitter.com/EricFrancishttps://twitter.com/EricFrancis/status/348095441038086144
    As per https://twitter.com/TammyTruman no flood insurance for home owners – businesses have option for flood protection.

    • ProfessorRance

      rustynail My parents house had flooding in their basement. Sad to hear this.

      • rustynail

        ProfessorRance rustynail That is nutso. My parents can get flood insurance in Ontario why not in Alberta?

        • ProfessorRance

          rustynail ProfessorRance I haven’t been able to talk to them much as they had to sleep in a hotel because they couldn’t make it home last night. I really want to know why you can’t get flood insurance in Alberta, just really strange.

        • ProfessorRance

          rustynail ProfessorRance I haven’t been able to talk to them much as they had to sleep in a hotel because they couldn’t make it home last night. I really want to know why you can’t get flood insurance in Alberta, just really strange.

        • rustynail

          ProfessorRance rustynail I wonder if it is even true.

        • ProfessorRance

          rustynail ProfessorRance Hopefully not. I’ll find out soon enough.

        • Jay_Berg

          Most Homeowners policies anywhere don’t cover flooding. Flooding being water that enters a house through the foundation. It’s a shitty reality most people don’t realize until it happens.

        • rustynail

          Jay_Berg around here you can add a rider for that

        • ProfessorRance

          Jay_Berg My parents just moved into their new house just outside of Calgary two weeks ago and this happens. Such terrible luck.

        • ProfessorRance

          LN-093 ProfessorRance Jay_Berg Thanks I appreciate it. I was just talking to my dad and he was just driving to see if my sisters place is ok but is worried the flooding will be too bad to get back home. Seems like it is straight out of a movie. Hopefully the rain stops soon for everyone dealing with it in and around Calgary.

        • LN-093

          ProfessorRance LN-093 Jay_Berg Ya, it seems like this kind of stuff only happens in the states.  It’s hard to believe it’s right in our backyard.

  • Bobsyouruncle

    canuckintheuk Thank God this thread is over. All this Reimer nonsense you’ve just unleashed is the biggest collection of hooey I’ve seen in one nest so far.

  • Pent_House

    For all this goalie talk, it may also be the Leafs favouring a different style of goalie. Bernier is real hybrid, plays the most stand-up out of any goalie around and is really good at handling the puck. For all you guys know, that also might play a big factor. Reimer doesn’t handle the puck well at all, and having a guy who can, makes a huge difference to your defence and the break-out. I really don’t mind this move, I just hope we don’t have to give up a massive amount.

    • phaneufoundlander

      not to mention brutal rebound control and pathetic in shootouts

      • rustynail

        phaneufoundlander when only one shooter scores in a shootout all year maybe it isn’t the goalie’s fault

        • phaneufoundlander

          Im not talking about the win loss column in the SO, its about his inability and awkwardness…he looks like he’s stuck to the ice sometimes….

        • MaxwellHowe

          rustynail phaneufoundlander IDK. Maybe Reimer doesn’t make them work hard enough for goals in shootout practice.

      • quintensmids

        phaneufoundlander stop it. just stop it.

        • phaneufoundlander

          stop what? Voicing my opinion? I’m just telling it like I see it bro…

        • newkb

          And being completely wrong again…

  • Burtonboy

    http://oilersnation.com/2013/6/21/missing-out-on-goaltenders

    Reimer to the Oilers ?

    • ProfessorRance

      LN-093 Burtonboy Maybe they were the team to offer a first round pick that Burke mentioned.

      • rustynail

        LN-093 ProfessorRance Burtonboy  7th I believe

      • ProfessorRance

        rustynail LN-093 ProfessorRance Burtonboy If we were offered the 7th pick for Reimer i think I would do it. The deals would then look like:
        To Toronto:
        Bernier
        7th overall pick (Lindholm, Monahan, Shinkaruk, Gauthier)
        To Edmonton:
        Reimer
        Holzer
        To LA:
        Frattin
        2nd round pick

        Those trades could give us our long awaited future 1c.

      • MaxwellHowe

        ProfessorRance rustynail LN-093 Burtonboy Its crazy risky.  I love it.  Not sure the Oilers pick would come so cheap though.  In addition, give em the rights to bargain with MacA and Bozak (lol)

      • happy_gilmour

        MaxwellHowe ProfessorRance rustynail LN-093 Burtonboy Franson’s rights would probably need to be included… I think Franson is a player that could be used as a chip as last year showed a good glimpse of what he could be… having said that, I’m not suggesting we trade him, or that he’s in that scenario, just that he’s going to be good and probably has value around the league and would be required to move up in the draft.

      • ProfessorRance

        MaxwellHowe ProfessorRance rustynail LN-093 Burtonboy LN-093, I think we could keep our first rounder in that scenario. With two first round picks we could package to trade up or draft two players which would replace the depth we lost in trading Frattin albeit not right away.
        MaxwellHowe, I do agree it is insanely risky. It could be one of those series of moves Nonis could do to really put a stamp on this team. Perhaps a Finn or Percy needs to be added as well for the 7th overall but I’d do those deals. Would leave us room to add other pieces via UFA as well.

      • Pent_House

        ProfessorRance Edmonton giving up 7th overall for Reimer and Holzer? lmao next.

      • ProfessorRance

        Pent_House ProfessorRance Eakins might have some say but really none of what I proposed will ever come to fruition. I am happy with Reimer and I was glad I was proved wrong about him.

      • Bobsyouruncle

        Pent_House ProfessorRance lol  It’s okay, he sprinkled pixie dust on the deal.

      • ProfessorRance

        LN-093 ProfessorRance MaxwellHowe rustynail Burtonboy It could give us a chance to get Barkov. That would be a crazy draft day.

  • rustynail

    https://twitter.com/TourismCanmorehttps://twitter.com/TourismCanmore/status/348106594439028739
    Highways to & from Canmore are still closed due to mud slides & flooding. If you’re trapped in region, plan to stay another night. https://twitter.com/search?q=%23canmore&src=hash

  • rustynail

    https://twitter.com/DougSaundershttps://twitter.com/DougSaunders/status/348097816431833088
    Holy, er, cow — RT https://twitter.com/josh_wingrove: Stampede is like 3 weeks away, and… RT https://twitter.com/j_komarnicki: More stampede park. http://t.co/3iDSVpn99V

    • Leafbites

      rustynail I lived very close to where this photo is shot from, a decade ago.

  • lukethenuke

    Hold on tell me what the fuck is going on here.  Were trading reimer and replacing with Bernier now??

    • Dink

      lukethenuke lol looks like someone thinks so

      • LN-093

        @Dink lukethenuke We’re just speculating, what else is new.

  • Burtonboy

    https://twitter.com/EricFrancis
    BREAKING: Water is up to row 10 at Saddledome. Dressing rooms completely submerged. Jumbotron rm & all equipment destroyed.

    • wiski

      Burtonboy Hope doorman and TT are alright.

      • Bobsyouruncle

        wiski Burtonboy TT is up in Edmonton. Haven’t heard of problems there. Doorman’s out in his boat looking for stranded old dolls.

        • wiski

          Bobsyouruncle wiski Burtonboy LOL sounds like something he would do. 😉

  • rustynail

    https://twitter.com/alex_ruizhttps://twitter.com/alex_ruiz/status/348102215946362880
    Oh Calgary :( — Before/After Downtown Calgary. 9th Ave SE at 4th St https://twitter.com/search?q=%23yycflood&src=hash http://t.co/fjNMQvi5sH via https://twitter.com/AlainDupere https://twitter.com/weathernetwork

  • rustynail

    https://twitter.com/Hope_Smokehttps://twitter.com/Hope_Smoke/status/348110258402631681
    Kypreos “can Crawford do what Luongo couldn’t do a couple of years ago & find a way to get this done?” Canucks had 8 goals in 7 gms in 2011

  • rustynail

    Wasn’t Bernier replaced by Mason in the WJC and after the change we won gold? :)

  • Pent_House

    Aww man Kipper kills me, looking at Millard with disgust lmao

  • Pent_House

    Aww man Kipper kills me, looking at Millard with disgust lmao

  • rustynail

    https://twitter.com/EricFrancishttps://twitter.com/EricFrancis/status/348115707814346753
    The Flames were close to announcing plans for new arena. The massive flooding of the Dome (up to row 10) will now play a role in discussion

  • wiski

    https://twitter.com/BuffaloBisonshttps://twitter.com/BuffaloBisons/status/348118274124427264
    (Awesome) ROSTER MOVE: https://twitter.com/search?q=%23Bisons&src=hash official add https://twitter.com/BlueJays INF JOSE REYES to roster.

  • rustynail

    https://twitter.com/Banff_Townhttps://twitter.com/Banff_Town/status/348114857675083776
    If you can provide accomm for displaced https://twitter.com/search?q=%23Banff&src=hash residents, please go to the high school/ call Community Services at 403.762.1251 https://twitter.com/search?q=%23abflood&src=hash

  • rustynail

    https://twitter.com/TheFourthPeriodhttps://twitter.com/TheFourthPeriod/status/348121843531669504
    Just heard from friends about flooding in Calgary, Saddledome flooded up to 10th row, & river still rising 30%… Keep safe everyone!!

    • djamon

      Isn’t the 10th row essentially underground?

      • rustynail

        djamon no idea never been ther

        • djamon

          Amazing pictures below, but the 10th row description is a little misleading since they build these arenas down into the ground.

        • djamon

          Amazing pictures below, but the 10th row description is a little misleading since they build these arenas down into the ground.

  • rustynail

    https://twitter.com/TheFourthPeriodhttps://twitter.com/TheFourthPeriod/status/348125278968619008
    Water now up to the 14th row in Saddledome… All equipment destroyed. Holy crappersm

  • wiski

    https://twitter.com/powerplaywithCJhttps://twitter.com/powerplaywithCJ/status/348129127938813952
    “https://twitter.com/wyshynski: Nashville GM David Poile to build Team USA for 2014 Sochi Olympics http://t.co/H9hwyO5pcE” https://twitter.com/search?q=%23ThatAwkwardMoment&src=hash for Ryan Suter

  • wiski

    https://twitter.com/garylawlesshttps://twitter.com/garylawless/status/348125234462855169
    NHL source tells me John Tortorella has been offered https://twitter.com/search?q=%23Canucks&src=hash job and two sides are close to a deal https://twitter.com/search?q=%23nhl&src=hash https://twitter.com/search?q=%23canucks&src=hash Torts will coach Canucks

    • ProfessorRance

      LN-093 wiski Excellent.

      • wiski

        ProfessorRance LN-093 wiskihttps://twitter.com/benkuzmahttps://twitter.com/benkuzma/status/348132801230544898
        Kept hearing from NHL sources that ownership was “very involved” in hiring process, wanted tempered kick-ass approach. Hello Torts.

      • ProfessorRance

        wiski ProfessorRance LN-093 I guess ownership wants to see the Sedins cry. At least they will have Burrows’ shoulder to do it on.

      • Tim

        ProfessorRance wiski LN-093 Torts is coaching womens hockey now?

      • playoff nut

        @Tim ProfessorRance wiski LN-093 the slut lmao

  • quintensmids

    why would anyone trade Reimer? We finally have a LEGIT NUMBER ONE goalie and some would trade it to get a number one centre? Talk about selling your Ferrari to buy gas.

    • dlb eh

      quintensmids 
      i agree.  even if we were to add a goalie, trade Scrivens to make room.  there’s only one Jimmy Reimer.  one Jimmy Reimer.

    • dlb eh

      LN-093 quintensmids 
      Reimer to EDM was mentioned.  big trade proposal below…