Damn it man, I’m a metrician, not a magician!

1382

Well, it’s been a wild ride on twitter for the past few days. If you follow the hockey analytics crowd on twitter you probably know what I’m talking about, though for those of you that don’t, let me fill you in. I think the best place to start is the beginning of this recent road and it’s a bit of a bumpy ride so buckle up.

As I’m sure many, if not all, of you know, on Thursday afternoon the Leafs placed Grabovski on waivers for the purpose of buying him out. I think it’s pretty safe to say that this news was a shock to most of us, but none more so than those heavily involved in the “advanced statistics” community.

NOTE: As a slight detour, I placed that in quotations because I, like some of the others that use these numbers (Corsi, Fenwick, etc.) prefer to call them possession statistics or just statistics. The reason is relatively simple, “advanced” is a term that differentiates those numbers from the ones tracked by the NHL and in order to help the possession numbers become more widely used and more understood, the end goal is for the two to be treated homogeneously (with the appropriate trust in the different statistics based on the merits of each).

Why was this move such a shock? Well, because Grabovski is a good hockey player that signed an expensive (pretty much accepted that he’s overpaid, the degree to which is open for debate) contract because he put up points. This season however, instead of playing Grabovski in an offensive situation, Carlyle gave Grabovski some of the toughest minutes in the league. He started the vast majority of his non-neutral zone shifts in the defensive zone against opposing teams’ top players, making it very difficult to generate offense. On top of that, he played with line-mates that weren’t exactly going to set the world on fire offensively themselves, exacerbating the problem of generating offense. On top of that Grabovski had some bad puck luck and a gastro intestinal issue that’s he’s been dealing with for quite some time. In past seasons when he’s been used in an offensive role, he’s been a possession monster for the Leafs. This season the Leafs were a train wreck possession wise but Grabovski was still good relative to the team, which is very impressive considering his role.

Grabovski wasn’t placed in a position to succeed offensively, was instead given some of the toughest minutes possible, dealt with bad luck and an injury, and was still above water possession wise relative to the team. So his buyout didn’t really make a lot of sense, regardless of the re-signing of Tyler Bozak that took place the next day.

The outrage this buyout generated amongst the hockey analytics twitterverse was met by opponents (or non-users) of possession statistics with cries of melodrama and claims of understanding the buyout because of Grabovski’s lack of production given his cap hit.  Harsh words were exchanged on both sides, prompting a tweeter by the handle @smithdanielj to claim “Grabo’s buyout may prove to be the Archduke Franz Ferdinand assassination of the war between Stats guys and Traditionalists.”

The next day wasn’t much better as the Leafs spent big money bringing in David Clarkson and re-signing Tyler Bozak. The prevailing opinion amongst the hockey analytics people is that Bozak is an inferior player to Grabovski, an opinion not shared by most mainstream media types (as evidenced by TSN placing Bozak as their #4 UFA with Grabovski as #9). Before noon, when FA Frenzy officially began, news of Grabovski clearing waivers was yet to be announced and the opponents/non-users of possession statistics were forwarding ideas that if Grabovski cleared waivers the proponents of possession statistics were wrong abut Grabovski. This certainly didn’t help ease tensions between the two groups.

Saturday saw the intensity of the dialogue brought down to a simmer (-ish situation) but Sunday would easily change that.

On Sunday morning, Leafs forward Joffrey Lupul tweeted “contracts aren’t awarded by this CORSI i am hearing all about. They are awarded for an equal value of skill and depth (at a certain position” and “If you bring certain attributes and you play to win. I’ll take you on my team 7 nights a week. Lets not look at this like Moneyball.”

And with that, all hell broke loose. The dialogue developing from Lupul’s tweet once again pitted “traditionalists” (opponents/non-users of possession statistics) against “advanced statistics” people. Quietly tucked away in the debate are clusters of productive discourse but for the most part the claws came out and the name-calling began with earnest. Typical comments coming from the “traditionalist” camp were along the lines of “watch the games instead conjuring up all-knowing numbers from behind your abacus”, while responses from the “advanced statistics” people took the form of “show us something better Luddites”.

These are of course exaggerations of the comments (in most cases, some were actually like these) and there were a relatively large number of people saying, “Actually it’s possible (and preferable) to use possession statistics AND watch hockey (correctly) to evaluate players”. In fact, the purpose of using these numbers is to shine the light on what’s happening on the ice, a shared goal with video analysis. Both are typically used in good analysis to reinforce each other and explain abnormalities.

The ride is almost over, I just want to take a minute to say that I enjoy using possession statistics to augment my understanding of the game and that they’ve helped me focus my attention to useful activities while watching hockey games. These statistics aren’t “advanced” or sorcery at all, and in fact are really about finding ways to quantify (albeit with funny names) ideas that we hear hockey players talk about all the time (great visualization of these ideas by Blake Murphy called “EXPLAINING THE GRABOVSKI-BOZAK “STATS” DEBATE IN SHINNY HOCKEY TERMS”).

The point I’m trying to get across here is that these stats don’t paint the whole picture and don’t replace watching the games, and nor should they. However, they DO tell a story about what happened and when used with the knowledge of other variables like “character”, “skating ability”, etc., a more complete picture of a player begins to take shape. They don’t tell the complete story about what’s going to happen in the future either (something Cam points out in article below) but there are other measures that help with that (like knowing the peak scoring years for forwards, for example).

There have been some posts about this already (see Cam Charron’s Corsi and Moneyball  and Dirk Hoag’s NHL Advanced Stats Aren’t So Advanced, But They’re Better Than Nothing) and you should definitely check them out. On top of that fellow MLHS writer @mORRganRielly has an open invitation to discuss possession statistics on reddit.  I would also recommend reading Jesse Spector’s piece about the history of Corsi titled Who is Jim Corsi? Meet the name behind the number.

Wow, what a wall of text! Thanks for sticking around to the end and I look forward to your comments about possession statistics and their role in the NHL.

Taken from @mORRganReilly’s reddit thread are some learning links on possession statistics:

  • MaxwellHowe

    Nice article Taylor, though the topic by now has been beaten to death.  I found it odd that you, to some extent, extol the virtues of the advanced stats yet partially excuse Grabo’s poor numbers because of “bad puck luck”.  Aren’t stats supposed to diminish, if not eliminate, the concept of chance or luck?  I suppose for that matter advanced stats inform us that the Leafs should have missed the playoofs and gotten a high draft pick.  Instead of taking the Stanley Cup finalists to overtime of the seventh game.
    On another point, Lupul’s tweet on the topic, upon reflection, is very subtly dismissive of Grabovski and supportive of Bozak.  Interesting.

    • Uncle Otis

      MaxwellHowe 
      Excellent point MH…Lups made this comment post Grabo gone/Bozie signed
      Quite telling indeed

      • MaxwellHowe

        Uncle Otis MaxwellHowe Yeah, Lupul is not a dumb young puckhead type (read Seguin).  He always seems very insightful, and god know she has been around the league to see many great players.  Maybe the debate about Grabo/Bozak will rage on, but I’m gonna trust Joffrey on this.

        • MaxwellHowe

          Uncle Otis MaxwellHowe she?

        • Uncle Otis

          MaxwellHowe 
          Reaffirms what many of us already believed
          Bozak is more versatile and perhaps Lups just gave us a d-room insight
          On advanced stats;
          And how do possession stats work for a dump and chase team?
          Or one more prone to give up the puck and counterpunch/trap?

    • taylor_wright

      MaxwellHowe Thanks for the positive comments. I didn’t want to get into the specifics of the different statistics too much, for the sake of brevity and clarity. 
      There’s a statistics called PDO that is the sum of on-ice sh% and on-ice sv%, this is typically used to gauge “puck luck” because they aren’t really factors that a particular player can influence. It regresses heavily to a value of 1000 and so a value above suggests a player got some good bounces while a value below suggests he got some bad ones. This is what I was referring to when speaking to Grabo’s puck luck. 
      The possession statistics do in fact show the Leafs as being a poor team, you’re right, but team PDO regresses heavily to 1000 over the course of roughly a full season. The Leafs had a very high PDO (which makes sense when you look at the abnormally high sh% of some players like Lupul or Frattin and the very high sv% posted by Scrivens and Reimer). Toronto had the second highest PDO in the league this season and the probability was high that those sh% and sv% were unsustainable. Thus suggesting the Leafs would have finished much lower in the standings over the course of a full season. 
      The possession statistics we have aren’t perfect (i.e. outliers), but they do give us insight and are useful. An interesting visualization of playoff teams and team Fenwick close % can be found here: http://deadspin.com/this-wonderful-graphic-proves-that-in-the-nhl-puck-pos-470045959

  • Uncle Otis

    Interesting read Taylor
    I guess the advanced stat guys couldn’t take Lups advice either…but what the hell would he know,right?

  • Tommy Cat

    I’m sure all these advanced stats can and do provide insight into a player. I’m sure you are a bright kid Taylor but to be honest most of the blogs that contain the word corsi in it I usually just skim. While I do have great respect for mathematicians and ststisticians it usually hurts my head too much to read it too much.
    What pisses me off is when people just use points only to justify positions. Especially in Defencemen. LIke in Norris voting. If a D-Man spends most of the year bailing out his buddy on the pinch and racks up a pile of points then he’s considered elite.

    • Uncle Otis

      Tommy Cat 
      Amen brother
      In Lups words,this aint moneyball
      These guys need to switch over to the Jays…they’re hot!(ish)

    • jimmyg65

      Tommy Cat Math nerds basically run the world now. I’m not interested in their take on my Leafs, to be honest, except maybe to read a paragraph or two on puck-possession stats. My eyes glaze over when I see a chart or graph. Maybe I’m a dinosaur…

  • Dink

    huh

    • Uncle Otis

      @Dink 
      uh-huh

  • Knights2Leafs

    Early in your article, your comment says it all.  It was pretty much accepted that Grabo was overpaid and that’s if he’s producing at pre-2012/13 numbers.  The Leafs would have had to gamble that under Carlyle he would rebound and even if he did, look how close we are to cap problems with exchanging Bozak for Grabo and saving $1.3M.
    That of course opens the whole debate on whether we have now overpaid for Clarkson and the answer is yes.  Put simply, over the next 3 years would you rather have Clarkson and Bozak or Grabo and someone like MacA?  I think the majority view the former as better than the latter.
    The one thing Nonis has done is put both Bozak and Clarkson in a better position to trade them down the road by using signing bonuses as a big part of their deals. 
    Either way I’m kind of shocked that we seemed to have lost our cap advantage.  I look at a team like Carolina that pays it’s top 5 forwards an average of $6.35M and their goalie $6M and they are in much better cap position than we are.

    • Burtonboy

      Knights2Leafs Because once you get outside the top 5 forwards and their top 4 d they have nothing but 800,000 garbage in the lineup

      • Knights2Leafs

        Burtonboy
        I understand how they do it BBoy and I’m not saying it’s the right way but they do seem to enjoy success in some years with that model along with some weak years.  Having depth throughout the lineup hopefully makes us a more consistent team.
        I just hope Nonis knows what he’s doing in terms of being able to get rid of Liles’ contract; otherwise the options are to trade Kulemin and replace him with garbage or trade one of Gunnar or Franson and replace them with quasi-garbage.  As you say, we will see how it plays out.

        • Cameron19

          Knights2Leafs Burtonboy Haven’t they not made the playoffs for like 5 years now?

        • Knights2Leafs

          Cameron19
          Not last year.

        • Cameron19

          Knights2Leafs Cameron19 They made it in 2009, but have drafted top 10 since then, I believe.

        • Knights2Leafs

          Cameron19 
          Sorry – I read that wrong – I thought you said they had made it the last 5 years.

        • Cameron19

          Knights2Leafs Cameron19 There was some rumblings earlier that they may try to move Skinner sooner or later.

    • Bobsyouruncle

      Knights2Leafs The signing bonuses and yearly structure of Bozak’s deal don’t seem to provide any advantage to trading him down the road.

      • Knights2Leafs

        Bobsyouruncle
        Maybe I don’t understand how the bonuses work, but say Bozak is traded after his 3rd year.  If the Leafs paid him his bonus on July 1st of $2M, there should only be $6.5 left owing over the last 2 years ( $3.25M per year) even if the cap hit remains at $4.2M.

        • Bobsyouruncle

          Knights2Leafs Bobsyouruncle Actually looks like you’re right. The bonus would give some advantage although more-so in a summer trade and less at the trade deadline

      • dlb eh

        Bobsyouruncle Knights2Leafs 
        it’ll be like trading him with cash considerations.  cap hit doesn’t change, of course.

  • darthNihilus

    I don’t think there is a single hockey fan who does not realize that statistics have their use in hockey. However there are 2 crowds one traditionalist and one statistician. The traditionalist wants to watch the games for their leisure, pleasure and general fandom of the sport. While the statistician is not satisfied with merely what the eyes see they prefer to crunch the numbers and enjoy the mathematical exercise. In the end the 2 combine to tell the story but neither can be separated from the other as stats cannot account for or predict the intangibles, they cannot predict or feel what the players and coaches “feel” on the ice. Conversely no hockey fan can ignore the stats at their most basic levels that give the indication whether a player is “good” or not to some quantifiable level.

    • Uncle Otis

      darthNihilus 
      Fair comment..and true enough
      Some stats are completely impaired by the subjectivity of the collector however..garbage in/out(hits for instance)
      Some traditionalists,however,watch the game like a coach and see what players are doing positionally,there abilities to win one on one puck battles.block shots/get in lanes,compete,skating speed/ability to force the defence etc.
      Much of this cant be quantified with stats..and as a coach,I know what players are effective on my team at any positon/game requirement.
      Some of us just have it,from habving played the game to a high level,and coached.
      It becomes innate

  • Burtonboy

    Morgan Rielly among 34 coming to Leafs prospect camp
    http://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey/2013/07/09/morgan_rielly_among_34_coming_to_leafs_prospect_camp.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

    • MaxwellHowe

      Burtonboy I shudder at the thought that the Leafs may have to send him back to junior because his pay would put them over the salary cap. 
      Again, the salary cap is the worse thing that has ever happened to the NHL.

      • Burtonboy

        MaxwellHowe Burtonboy I would bet right now if he plays well enough to make the team the Leafs will find a way to get him into the lineup.

        • MaxwellHowe

          Burtonboy MaxwellHowe We may as well call the rest of the summer the Liles/Gunnarsson/Kulimen trade watch.  Followed by the frantic Kadri/Franson negotiation.

        • Burtonboy

          MaxwellHowe Burtonboy I think your over reacting . Wait and see what happens . For all we we know they get Kadri Franson ,Gunnar and Colborne signed for 10 mil . Get Liles salary off the books one way or another and things fall in place pretty well.

        • Tommy Cat

          Burtonboy MaxwellHowe Don’t think Nonis gets all those signed (and Fraser ?) for 10 mil.  Something has to break.  I think that Liles still have a bit of value and can be moved but Nonis will take his time trying to get value.  With all our D prospects that longer term Liles contract for what he brings is something we definately don’t need.

        • Burtonboy

          Tommy Cat Burtonboy MaxwellHowe Maybe maybe not . I was simpley saying we have to let this play out . I do agree moving Liles is probably key to everything else  falling in place .

        • MaxwellHowe

          Tommy Cat Burtonboy MaxwellHowe Nonis shouldn’t be too patient or greedy with Liles.

      • Loric76

        MaxwellHowe Burtonboy I don’t mind the cap, I’m just pissed MLSE didn’t do anything for decades before the cap.  Greedy fuckers.

        • Burtonboy

          Loric76 MaxwellHowe Burtonboy They might have if they had some management with a fuckin clue about what they were doing

  • Burtonboy

    Loiselle is coming up on the fan right now 
    http://player.rogersradio.ca/cjcl/on_air

    • daniel marois

      Burtonboy 
      A recap on what he said??

      • Loric76

        daniel marois Burtonboyhttps://twitter.com/Hope_Smokehttps://twitter.com/Hope_Smoke/status/354568987725660162
        Loiselle FAN 590 “Franson has emerged. We’re expecting him to keep taking steps. Gardiner had a tough year. We expect big things from him”https://twitter.com/Hope_Smokehttps://twitter.com/Hope_Smoke/status/354569116897648640
        Loiselle “Petter Granberg is a world class player and we’re really excited to see what he can do after his big year last season”https://twitter.com/Hope_Smokehttps://twitter.com/Hope_Smoke/status/354569227971211265
        Loiselle “defense and goaltending go hand in hand and we think adding Bernier will be a big help to that area”https://twitter.com/Hope_Smokehttps://twitter.com/Hope_Smoke/status/354569523527024642
        Loiselle “difference between Bernier and Reimer is Bernier’s puck moving ability. That will help our defenseman transition”

        • daniel marois

          Loric76 daniel marois Burtonboy 
          Thanks bud.  Did he mention anything about Morgan Reilly?

        • MaxwellHowe

          Loric76 daniel marois Burtonboy Reimer’s inability to handle the puck is indeed frustrating.  Can’t imagine why he has yet to improve this facet of his game.

        • Tommy Cat

          Loric76 daniel marois Burtonboy He should tell the world Franson has emerged after the contract is signed!!!

        • daniel marois

          MaxwellHowe Loric76 daniel marois Burtonboy 
          If they have high hopes for Granberg, perhaps that’s why they did not sign an expensive free agent d-man.  Looking forward to see how he does this week at camp.

        • Loric76

          daniel marois Loric76 Burtonboy thats all that was tweeted

        • daniel marois

          Tommy Cat Loric76 daniel marois Burtonboy 
          No kidding!  But with the signing of Brennan, I can see both Liles and Gunnerson being moved before training camp.  I am sure Kadri and Franson are priority #1 and #2 in that order to re-sign.

        • Burtonboy

          daniel marois Tommy Cat Loric76 Burtonboy Brennan has to win a job first . I bet he plays with the Marlies

        • daniel marois

          Loric76 daniel marois Burtonboy 
          OK.  590 should have the podcast posted shortly with the Loiselle interview.

        • Loric76

          daniel marois Tommy Cat Loric76 Burtonboy Brennan and Granberg are not going to replace Gunner off the top line.  Franson might be the only wildcard for the #2 spot right now.

        • Mind Bomb

          Tommy Cat Loric76 daniel marois Burtonboy  He is preparing us for a Big Contract bro

        • Tommy Cat

          daniel marois Tommy Cat Loric76 Burtonboy Definately.  And they are two young core players we want happy and content not pissed off that the contract talks went long and nasty.  Get er done!

        • Loric76

          Mind Bomb Tommy Cat Loric76 daniel marois Burtonboy yup totally.  we’re all guessing around 2.5-3.5, so 5+?  lol

        • daniel marois

          Burtonboy daniel marois Tommy Cat Loric76 
          No he can’t with the Marlies.  He was signed on a one-way contract.  If he doesnt make the Leafs, they cut him loose.

        • Burtonboy

          Mind Bomb Tommy Cat Loric76 daniel marois Burtonboy What big contract ?

        • Loric76

          Burtonboy Mind Bomb Tommy Cat Loric76 daniel marois that they’re about to give Franson.  The praise from Louiselle is to prep the fans

        • Loric76

          daniel marois Burtonboy Tommy Cat Loric76 no, if Brennan doesn’t make the Leafs, he plays for the Marlies except keeps getting paid NHL money.

        • daniel marois

          Loric76 daniel marois Burtonboy Tommy Cat 
          Are you sure?  I thought one-way contract means they can’t send you to the minors?

        • Burtonboy

          Loric76 Burtonboy Mind Bomb Tommy Cat daniel marois We will see . Give Kadri, Franson ,Gunnar ,Colborne 12 mil combined ,go to arb with Fraser and then let the buyout kick in and let Liles go lol

        • daniel marois

          Burtonboy Loric76 Mind Bomb Tommy Cat daniel marois 
          Colborne needs to be re-signed? Geez, that’s a lot of RFAs.  Somebody is gonna be traded soon….

        • colino17

          daniel marois Loric76 Burtonboy Tommy Cat No NMC means they can’t send you to the minors (unless you waive)…one way just means that salary is same at both levels as opposed to two-way which means you get paid differently (ex: NHL-700k AHL 70k)

        • colino17

          Burtonboy Loric76 Mind Bomb Tommy Cat daniel marois buyout?

        • daniel marois

          colino17 daniel marois Loric76 Burtonboy Tommy Cat 
          Gotcha.  Thanks for clarifying!

        • Mind Bomb

          Burtonboy Mind Bomb Tommy Cat Loric76 daniel marois  Because Franson deserves one, 7th in scoring, 3 goals in a Playoff series, he brought it, he has the talent, he has some pedigree, IE he played well in Nash, now he squawked about salary last contract, the leafs said prove it. and He DID.
          So I am thinking he gets paid BB

        • Burtonboy

          Mind Bomb Burtonboy Tommy Cat Loric76 daniel marois He will . Just let this stuff play out . Loiselle is no fool when it comes to this stuff

        • Loric76

          daniel marois Loric76 Burtonboy Tommy Cat yep I’m sure.  1-way vs 2-way is just NHL vs AHL salaries.

        • http://i.imgur.com/MyKj5C3.gif ingy56

          Loric76 daniel marois Burtonboy Tommy Cat Holzer has a one-way deal and they sent him down last year.

        • colino17

          Loric76 daniel marois Burtonboy Tommy Cat Think one-way/two-way has cap implications now too…as in demoted two-way players don’t count against the cap but demoted one-way players might…not sure about that though…if so they may be banking on Brennan making it by signing him one-way

        • http://i.imgur.com/MyKj5C3.gif ingy56

          colino17 Loric76 daniel marois Burtonboy Tommy Cat I believe if they clear waivers if need be, they can go down. Think Komi, Redden etc.

        • colino17

          ingy56 colino17 Loric76 daniel marois Burtonboy Tommy Cat Not that they can’t go down, but even if they do I think their cap might still stay

        • rustynail

          colino17 ingy56 Loric76 daniel marois Burtonboy Tommy Cat not the first 925K of it

        • colino17

          rustynail colino17 ingy56 Loric76 daniel marois Burtonboy Tommy Cat okay gotcha

    • dlb eh

      Burtonboy 
      my advice to anyone conducting an interview (ive heard a couple this week alone that irritated me).
      GET TO THE POINT.  stop fucking answering the question while you ask it.  we’re not interested in your answer, we want to hear what the person has to say that you’ve invited on the show, and that person doesn’t care how smart you think you are.
      ask.  the.  damned.  question.  then shut up and listen.  pay attention so you can follow it up intelligently.  and stop interrupting.

  • Mind Bomb

    Good morning Folks

    • http://i.imgur.com/MyKj5C3.gif ingy56

      Mind Bomb Morning MB

      • Mind Bomb

        ingy56 Mind Bomb  It is today, the sun has finally come out in my area, I hope its the same for the Torontonians

        • Loric76

          Mind Bomb ingy56 morning.  dried out yet?

        • http://i.imgur.com/MyKj5C3.gif ingy56

          Mind Bomb ingy56 They are supposed to get even more rain today.   Same here in Peterpatch.

        • http://i.imgur.com/MyKj5C3.gif ingy56

          Loric76 Mind Bomb ingy56 All good here, we got a t-storm last night, but nothing like down south.

        • Uncle Otis

          ingy56 
          Hope the gang is ok/not too much water damage
          Rained like cats/dogs all day here too,but if I ever flood out,you are all living on waterfront

  • Cameron19

    Sounds like they think Granberg will make the jump fairly quickly…

    • Burtonboy

      Cameron19 And they expect Franson and Gards to really pick up the slack this yr as well

      • Cameron19

        Burtonboy Cameron19 I think that was clear from the final few games of the playoffs.  It looked like Randy finally trusted Gardiner, and started believing Franson could be out there a lot more often. 

        Still gotta replace Liles with someone cheaper, though….

        • Burtonboy

          Cameron19 Burtonboy Yep Liles moving on is probably top priority for Nonis at this point .

        • colino17

          Burtonboy Cameron19 Liles to COL for a 2nd round pick lol

        • Burtonboy

          colino17 Burtonboy Cameron19 Its possible. lol

        • Cameron19

          Burtonboy Cameron19 I think our D will be this once all the smoke clears:

          Gunnar / Phaneuf
          Gardiner / Franson
          Lydman / Granberg
          (Fraser)

          Perhaps Rielly gets his 9 games, and perhaps Granberg spends some time with the Marlies first, but I picture us adding a cheap vet that Carlyle likes, and otherwise going fairly young – eventually ending up in this configuration.

        • Tommy Cat

          Cameron19 Burtonboy The cheap vet also allows for a transition plan for the maturing prospects.

        • Burtonboy

          Cameron19 Burtonboy Where the fuck did Lydman come from

        • Cameron19

          Burtonboy Cameron19 Think he’s the cheap vet that Carlyle would like to grab. Probably get him for 1.5-2.0 million. Logged a lot of minutes under RC in Anaheim, and then fell out of favor a little with Boudreau.

          When the Ducks missed the playoffs in 2012, Carlyle said it wouldn’t have happened if Lydman hadn’t gone down with an injury, as they really counted on him for a lot.

        • Tommy Cat

          Cameron19 Burtonboy Is he UFA?

        • Cameron19

          Tommy Cat Cameron19 Burtonboy Yea.

        • dlb eh

          Burtonboy Cameron19 
          i remember him being one of BUF’s most steady D a few years ago when we played them regularily.  physical enough and smart with the puck.  he’s older, but if he’s cheap he’s still capable of 18-20 minutes a night.

        • dlb eh

          Cameron19 Burtonboy 
          remember Lindy Ruff saying something like that about Connolly haha

        • MaxwellHowe

          colino17 Burtonboy Cameron19 to anyone for a 7th round pick, even future considerations, would be fine

        • Zeus_WilliamMapleLeafs

          Cameron19
          I honestly think that Gunnarson wont be back. I think he’ll be asking for around the 3 million mark and to be honest I feel him and Phaneuf has already peeked and to be honest isnt all that good. Phaneuf is a stud player Gunnarson is an also ran.

        • Tommy Cat

          Zeus_WilliamMapleLeafs Cameron19 Gunner is steady and will be reasonable priced.

        • colino17

          Cameron19BurtonboyCAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
          My Custom Lineup
          FORWARDS
          James Van Riemsdyk
          ($4.250m)
          /
          Tyler Bozak
          ($4.200m)
          /
          Phil Kessel
          ($5.400m)
          Joffrey Lupul
          ($5.250m)
          /
          Nazem Kadri
          ($3.500m)
          /
          David Clarkson
          ($5.250m)
          Joe Colborne
          ($1.200m)
          /
          Dave Bolland
          ($3.375m)
          /
          Nikolai Kulemin
          ($2.800m)
          Frazer McLaren
          ($0.700m)
          /
          Jay McClement
          ($1.500m)
          /
          Colton Orr
          ($0.925m)
          DEFENSEMEN
          Dion Phaneuf
          ($6.500m)
          /
          Carl Gunnarsson
          ($3.250m)
          Jake Gardiner
          ($1.117m)
          /
          Cody Franson
          ($4.000m)
          Mark Fraser
          ($1.000m)
          /
          Toni Lydman
          ($2.000m)
          Petter Granberg
          ($0.900m)
          /

          GOALTENDERS
          Jonathan Bernier
          ($2.900m)
          James Reimer
          ($1.800m)
          OTHER
          Buyout:
          Darcy Tucker ($1.000m)

          Buyout:
          Colby Armstrong ($1.000m)

          RETAINED SALARY TRANSACTIONS (0.778% of upper limit)
          Matt Frattin ($0.437m—0.5%)
          Ben Scrivens ($0.062m—0.1%)
          ——
          CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
          (these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
          SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $64,316,667; BONUSES: $400,000
          CAP SPACE (21-man roster): $383,333

        • Zeus_WilliamMapleLeafs

          Tommy Cat 
          Hes a 75% man. He isnt spectacular at anything on the ice and even though hes a useful player just isnt a top line player. imo of course. I think he plays top minutes because we dont have anyone who can not because hes good enough to do it. He would never play top minutes for a team like Boston or LA, nor Chicago or Nashville. So why should he for the Toronto Maple Leafs. I do think because of his time he will be asking for north of 3 million and for me thats not good value. For me he is a 3rd line guy who can pop up to the 1st when an injury occurs and fit in instantly – thats it.

        • Cameron19

          Zeus_WilliamMapleLeafs Tommy Cat Is this still about Gunnarsson?

        • Zeus_WilliamMapleLeafs

          Cameron19 Zeus_WilliamMapleLeafs Tommy Cat yes

        • Cameron19

          Zeus_WilliamMapleLeafs Cameron19 Tommy Cat Ah, I think he would most definitely play on a lot of those other teams – certainly Nashville.  He would probably be one of Boston’s most mobile D. He would be a nice fill-in for Scuderi in LA – and they could actually put him on the 2nd pairing, which he is better suited to. 

          Maybe not Chicago though. Their left side is pretty stacked.

        • Tommy Cat

          Zeus_WilliamMapleLeafs Tommy Cat I see him as a steady 2 or 3 pair as well.  But he’s steady, no not stectacular but all your players aren’t stars.  Its a puzzle.  And in the cap world a players value is so much linked in how much of the total he is sliced.

        • Zeus_WilliamMapleLeafs

          Tommy Cat Zeus_WilliamMapleLeafs  
          I feel playing Gunnarson with Phaneuf has been too much of the safe route. It is like the defence hasnt got an identity the way they play at the moment. I cant really put my finger on it but it just doesnt look good.
          Personally I would like to see Phaneuf paired with Franson as with the PP and get that partnership fully in tune with each other. There are a lot of teams that adopt the idea of keeping defensive pairings the same during PP or vice versa.
          Gunnarson with Gardiner would be a good pairing. I really do feel Gardiner needs a steady eddy beside him. 
          And I would like to see the top two defensive pairings take the same minutes rather than Phaneuf be completely wasted every game.

        • Cameron19

          Zeus_WilliamMapleLeafs Tommy Cat Those pairings don’t work though man.  They all play the opposite side of the ice. Phaneuf needs to be on the right side, Franson even more so, and Gunnar and Gardiner both need the left side.

        • Tommy Cat

          Zeus_WilliamMapleLeafs Tommy Cat I certainly agree with your last point.  Like teams like Boston able to run 3 or 4 good lines at the opposition every night.  D should be balanced well too.  A totally spent and winded 1 D can’t be all that much better for the next shift than your rested 3 pair on the bench later in the game.

        • Zeus_WilliamMapleLeafs

          Cameron19
          Is a defenders left or right side positioning set in stone. I have seen on numerous occasions where a d-man has looked better playing on the opposite wing as he seems to try harder and is more alert. Taking him out of his comfort zone.
          Also a d- pairing comes up against all sorts of miss match forward lines coming his way. The game to me is a lot more fluid than just putting 5 skaters name on a piece of paper and saying that’ll work

        • MaxwellHowe

          Cameron19 Zeus_WilliamMapleLeafs Tommy Cat I don’t agree that Phaneuf necessarily needs to play on the right side, excepting powerplays.  In particular, pinching on your wrong handed side is tough.  Mistakes can be made.  None come to mind though….

        • Zeus_WilliamMapleLeafs

          Tommy Cat
          couldn’t agree more.
          If you dont trust your 3rd d pairing then why are they picking up a wage!

        • Cameron19

          MaxwellHowe Cameron19 Zeus_WilliamMapleLeafs Tommy Cat He’s played his whole career there minus 20 games with Carlyle, and he was clearly uncomfortable…

        • Cameron19

          Zeus_WilliamMapleLeafs Cameron19 A lot of coaches have talked the last couple years about the importance of having defenders on their strong side, just simply because of the increased speed of the game.  Getting the puck off the board and out of the zone – you don’t have the millisecond to adjust anymore.  

          Phaneuf is a rare case, but because he’s always been the most talented defender on his team, and right handed D are scarce, he’s always been asked to play the right side – since early in Junior. Switching him this year didn’t work, and i don’t think it will work in the future, either…

        • Tommy Cat

          Cameron19 Zeus_WilliamMapleLeafs And you don’t have that millisecond either if you’re totally baffed from playing too many minues.

        • Cameron19

          Tommy Cat Cameron19 Zeus_WilliamMapleLeafs I think the hope is that the Gardiner/Franson pairing, and the bottom pair, can each contribute a little more this year.

          Phaneuf: 24 minutes
          Gunnar: 20 minutes
          Gardiner: 20 minutes
          Franson: 22 minutes
          Lydman: 18 minutes
          Granberg: 16 minutes

        • Zeus_WilliamMapleLeafs

          Cameron19 Zeus_WilliamMapleLeafs  
          I can accept that. You will lose some edge if you’re playing your opposite side but I do feel that with all the endless half changes (poor line changes) and players on the opposing forward lines playing out of position that the effects you talk about are negligible. 
          I also believe in tactics in drawing a team to attack in a way that your line up has suggested that they should attack. All of this has to be taken into account.
          A d pairing with just right siders dictating play against one opposing line and then a line of left siders playing against another. A well balanced 3rd pairing and if needed the ability for d men to change lines if it doesn’t seem to work well. As it is I feel the Leafs d is more attuned to spoiling the opposition rather than enhance our own play. Best form of defence is attack and all that.

        • Zeus_WilliamMapleLeafs

          Cameron19
          Have I missed a trade? Lydman?
          Where’s Fraser in all this, not deserving a shot?

        • Cameron19

          Zeus_WilliamMapleLeafs Cameron19 Lydman is a UFA.  It doesn’t have to be him, I just expect someone like him signed as a depth D if we do manage to move Liles. Fraser is #7, and perhaps we dress 7D some nights.

    • http://i.imgur.com/MyKj5C3.gif ingy56

      Cameron19 Nice, love to see the prospects make the jump. Waited a long time for the prospect pool to be good… a long time.

      • Cameron19

        ingy56 Cameron19 According to Hockey’s Future our prospect pool is garbage.

        • http://i.imgur.com/MyKj5C3.gif ingy56

          Cameron19 ingy56 I’ll defer to the product on the ice instead.

        • Cameron19

          ingy56 Cameron19 Had an argument with someone on Twitter about this the other day.  He argued that Hockey Future’s ranking had to be correct as he’d never heard a fan of another franchise be complimentary of our prospect pool, lol.

        • http://i.imgur.com/MyKj5C3.gif ingy56

          Cameron19 ingy56 When they had Calgary ranked 10th, that said it all for me. Cat box liner.

        • MaxwellHowe

          Cameron19 ingy56 Its not the quality of the pool that is most important – it is the development structure and strategy.  The Leafs need to invest in that.  Having the Marlies in town is an advantage they should exploit.

        • http://i.imgur.com/MyKj5C3.gif ingy56

          MaxwellHowe Cameron19 ingy56 It could always be better, but it has taken huge strides over the past 10 years or more. The AHL team used to be a place to bury mistakes.

  • Zeus_WilliamMapleLeafs

    There are lies, damn lies and then there are statistics.
    I’m old school. I use my eyes when judging whether a player is good enough. Simple stats like goals scored or assists and effectiveness on the PP or PK are useful to get a very broad view of an entire seasons play by a particular player but thats all it is. A broad view.
    Adding another level to justify the stats goes to reducing the possibility of variance of the results BUT by doing so needs another assumption to create it. Hockey stats are as real as evidence put before a grand jury by a southern states police department against a minority defendant. The point of evidence retrieval is to go towards proving a certain point rather than bolstering your original claims. There is a difference. It tells the truth but not the whole truth.
    I honestly believe hockey stats have been produced to separate the pleb from those in the know. To separate real hockey ability from those who have no idea but want to sound clever to the laymen and they themselves feel deserving of a place in the hockey world despite only offering armchair aerobics.
    As far as Im concerned corsi and all that is horse-shite, Having studied mathematics at University I understand the limits of it. I believe in gut feeling and the critical eye and for me it has worked in more than one sport.
    Im still yet to see the stat for player playing with injury during collated data. Player being kept up at night due to new born child stats. Player dealing with family bereavement stats. Player getting used to new team mate stats. Player playing while playing with another player hes fallen out with due to “whatever” stats. Stats where the time of year are taken into account. And when all these stats could be collated and tabled for each individual player  then I suppose Corsi would be a little more acurate.
    Deciding on the worth of a player using stats is as difficult and unlikely as writing out the entire gene code for a hockey player and deciding prior to a childs first hockey lesson whether he’ll make it or not.
    Total garbage. These are men not robots and the Corsi genius’s are not the new Bill Gates programming new hockey pros.

  • Burtonboy

    https://twitter.com/MLHS_Mikehttps://twitter.com/MLHS_Mike/status/354581997185806337
    Dreger on 690: “Clarkson left 4.5 + million dollars on the table”

    • rustynail

      Burtonboy doesn’t surprise me

      • daniel marois

        rustynail Burtonboy 
        Yeah.  I don’t care about the term.  He won’t finish his career in TO.  I am sure he he will be dealt in years 5-7.  It’s the cap hit and it is reasonable.  He will make an impact immediately.

    • KingTon

      Burtonboy Nice to hear he wasn’t entirely greedy.

    • MaxwellHowe

      Burtonboy Remember months ago when the debate over Clarkson raged and there were many here who dismissed the idea that a local boy would take less to play for the Leafs.  This was the subject of some debate.  We have clear winners and losers.  You know who you are.

    • http://i.imgur.com/MyKj5C3.gif ingy56

      Burtonboy I think he may very well make some of that back in endorsements.

      • MaxwellHowe

        ingy56 Burtonboy Good point

    • dlb eh

      Burtonboy 
      if Cleary leaves 4.5 m on the table he might come in at a price tag Nonis will like

  • daniel marois

    Loiselle interview now up on SN 590:
    http://www.sportsnet.ca/590/brady-and-lang/

  • daniel marois

    By the way, I really like Joey Vandetta as a host on SN 590.  You can tell he knows his hockey and is a big Leafs fan.

  • mcloki

    Morning Gents. Hope everyone is safe and dry.

    • Mind Bomb

      mcloki Morning MC

  • http://i.imgur.com/MyKj5C3.gif ingy56

    https://twitter.com/MLHS_Mikehttps://twitter.com/MLHS_Mike/status/354582758326153216
    So, per Darren Dreger, Clarkson turned down about 2/3 of a million per year to sign in Toronto.

    Anyone else but me think this is just Dreger trying to vindicate his prediction of $6 million a year?

    • Cameron19

      ingy56 Nah, McKenzie and a few others have said the same thing.  No doubt Edmonton offered 42 million over 7 years.

      • Cameron19

        ingy56 But don’t get me wrong….Dreger’s still a tool, lol.

  • Scarb

    Traditionalist or advanced stats, does not matter. They way they deployed Grabo last season was wrong and his lack of point success suffered because of it. He should have been given a shot at the #1 centre spot or at least #2. He has heart and plays to win every game and he did not whine about anything during the season. He was one of the best Leafs in the playoffs. They have made a mistake in letting him go. Time for all to move on. Good luck Grabo. Go Leafs go.

    • leafscapguru

      @Scarb Not so sure about him not complaining,  by Lupul’s comments on twitter I think the team would rather have Bozak than Grabo, as he was saying advance stats don’t matter its what’s on the ice and Bozak was more of a team guy.  Personally I think he was justifying the move and if the team wanted bozak over grabo then this was a smart move.  Remember this is also speculation im just thinking that’s what Lupul was getting at.

  • B_Leaf

    It seems fairly important for the Leafs to move Liles, but I find it hard to believe another team would take him at the hit involved. Would you consider moving a prospect so that another team would take him? For example would you offer Percy and Liles to a team like Florida or Calgary to get away from the cap hit or the buy out hit. Is Percy too much? If forced between a buyout or trading Percy what would you pick?

    • MaxwellHowe

      B_Leaf if Nonis has a tase for irony he will do as you suggest and trade Liles and Percy to the Islanders so they can buy us out of our money problems.

      • B_Leaf

        MaxwellHowe B_Leaf 
        lol

    • Cameron19

      B_Leaf Lots of things you’re not considering there though.  We could eat a million of his salary for instance – he’s probably very appealing at a 2.875 cap hit for 3 years.  You probably couldn’t sign a better D for less. We could take back salary in the deal. Surely someone has a 2 million dollar bottom six forward they don’t really need/want.  Moving Percy is far too much to move a contract that really is not THAT inhibiting.  Liles is still a good player. It’s not the same as Komisarek, who is now a reclamation project.

      • B_Leaf

        Cameron19 B_Leaf 
        I did consider all of those things, but I don’t hold Liles as valuable as you. The part about retaining salary is a little unclear to me. I am not sure how much the leafs can retain having already retained some…any insight on this is appreciated. The point is though that we don’t want to retain salary moving forward if possible. Although a million is better than 3.8. 
        I do think Percy is a significant cost but Liles contract is fairly long so dealing brad Ross wouldn’t get it done.

        • Cameron19

          B_Leaf Cameron19 They can retain up to half of anyone’s contract.  However, you can only do this for 3 players in any one season.  Since we are already retaining salary on Frattin and Scrivens, we only have one spot left for this season.

        • B_Leaf

          Cameron19 B_Leaf 
          But isn’t there an overall limit for a team as too how much total they can retain…thought I heard a percentage??

        • Cameron19

          B_Leaf Cameron19 As for Liles, I feel like this is a case of Carlyle not trusting him a whole lot, and our opinions being diminished as a result.  Once O’Byrne was here, Liles played out the rest of the regular season, and was playing quite a few minutes – anywhere from 16-20 per night.  So my feeling is that he’s a more useful player than we’re allowing ourselves to remember.

          Carlyle also removed him from the PP, which was silly, because that’s his biggest strength.  Any team even remotely interested in him is envisioning him running their PP, not doing whatever the hell Carlyle had him doing…

        • rustynail

          B_Leaf Cameron19 50%

        • B_Leaf

          Cameron19 B_Leaf 
          I am basing my view of Liles on what I have seen him do since his concussion/contract…which is not much.

        • Cameron19

          B_Leaf Cameron19 Like Grabovski, has not been given much opportunity. Needs to be in an offensive role to have success.  Still had 11pts in 32 games despite losing his bread and butter…Personally I think Liles is under-rated, and I wish Carlyle had more faith in him. He’s still just 32, too….still in his prime.

        • B_Leaf

          Cameron19 B_Leaf 
          If franson or Fraser is sitting to start the year because they don’t have a contract i guess liles will get a good chance then.

        • Cameron19

          B_Leaf Cameron19 I sincerely doubt that will happen…

        • colino17

          Cameron19 B_Leaf Pretty close to not being though…32/33 seems to be that pivot point where a lot of players start heading downhill fast (with elite players being an exception usually)

        • Cameron19

          colino17 Cameron19 B_Leaf Forwards more than defenders.  Liles is a pretty spry 32. Plays a style of game that doesn’t deteriorate.  And I really don’t buy the “damaged goods” angle.  I think people just gravitate to that because of the Kaberle storyline.

        • colino17

          Cameron19 colino17 B_Leaf Funny you say that because I remember people using the style of game argument for Kaberle a few years back…it just seems that with the speed of the game it gets harder and harder for guys to keep up once they get past that 32/32 point

        • Cameron19

          colino17 Cameron19 B_Leaf Kaberle’s issues are beyond hockey though.  After he won the Cup, he showed up to Carolina with a huge gut, and spent that year in divorce hearings. He let his fitness fall off the map and stopped caring. Don’t see that as being the case with Liles. 

          A fit Kaberle could still run a helluva a PP, I’m betting.

        • colino17

          Cameron19 colino17 B_Leaf Not saying Liles is going to fall off a cliff like Kabs did but he’ll likely get progressively worse every year from here on out (Teemu Selanne’s are pretty rare) and we could use that $3.8m cap space

        • MaxwellHowe

          Cameron19 B_Leaf We can only hope other GMs share your view of Liles.  He could be a useful depth player for the Leafs but, alas, another ill considered contract.

      • dlb eh

        Cameron19 B_Leaf 
        i already hate seeing CAP alloted to players not on our team.  i don’t want more.

    • http://i.imgur.com/MyKj5C3.gif ingy56

      B_Leaf I was wondering if they get frustrated in trying to move out Liles and move Kulemin instead for cap relief. Don’t want to see it happen, but he’s in the last year of his deal and doesn’t have a NTC. Hate to see it though. Less painful than moving a former 1st round pick  perhaps.

      • Cameron19

        ingy56 B_Leaf Either way, they have to make a decision on Kulemin now, in my opinion.  If they don’t intend to resign him next off-season, they should be trading him regardless  Don’t go into the season with him unless you have a plan in place for a trade or resign – worst case scenario is we get to the deadline and feel like we can’t part with him because of an impending playoff run, and then let him walk for nothing.

        • http://i.imgur.com/MyKj5C3.gif ingy56

          Cameron19 ingy56 B_Leaf Yeah, that’s what I’m thinking. I definitely don’t want to see Liles packaged with a prospect.

        • leafscapguru

          ingy56 Cameron19 B_Leaf I like Kuli I think his will be a great 3rd liner, hard working guy at a reasonable price.  I think that JML with a 7th would be good enough to move him not our former first rounder that’s crazy.  Plenty of teams could use JML personally I see Washington being a contender as they could use JML and have the cap space for him

        • Mind Bomb

          ingy56 Cameron19 B_Leaf  So we are now running a top 6 bottom 6 ? We go out a get Bolland but trade away Kulie and stick boland with 2 Marlies ?
          I am confused you 2  ?

        • B_Leaf

          leafscapguru ingy56 Cameron19 B_Leaf 
          After moving Frattin, I cant imagine dealing Kule. That would make the Clarkson signing a disaster.

        • rustynail

          B_Leaf leafscapguru ingy56 Cameron19 Kulie is a beast I will be pissed if he goes anywhere

        • Cameron19

          leafscapguru ingy56 Cameron19 B_Leaf Kulemin’s one of my favorites, I just think the organization needs to get value for him if they aren’t going to resign him. 

          Washington could maybe do it, but they might ask us to eat salary.  They have only 8.5 million and still need to resign Alzner (who should get in the 3-4.25 range), and Johansson.

        • Mind Bomb

          B_Leaf leafscapguru ingy56 Cameron19 I agree B_leaf, if Nonis trades Kulie, I am officially done with Nonis and RC

        • http://i.imgur.com/MyKj5C3.gif ingy56

          Mind Bomb ingy56 Cameron19 B_Leaf Just saying that Nonis’ hand could be forced. “Could be” the operative phrase. I certainly don’t want to see Kulie leave but he could end up being an option for Nonis if he decides they need cap space.

        • rustynail

          ingy56 Mind Bomb Cameron19 B_Leaf  that makes the Clarkson and Bozak signing look bad to me then

        • Mind Bomb

          ingy56 Mind Bomb Cameron19 B_Leaf Then will all due respect my friend, Nonis would be a complete Idiot and should be fired were that to happen :)

        • http://i.imgur.com/MyKj5C3.gif ingy56

          Mind Bomb ingy56 Cameron19 B_Leaf What if he walks for nothing at season’s end?

        • leafscapguru

          ingy56 Mind Bomb Cameron19 B_Leaf I would rather them use a normal buyout on JML than trade Kuli only hits us for 875,00k next season

        • rustynail

          Cameron19 leafscapguru ingy56 B_Leaf did you just suggest we eat salary to move Kulie?

        • Cameron19

          rustynail ingy56 Mind Bomb Cameron19 B_Leaf For me, it’s not really tied to those signings.  Either way, this summer is a decision point on Kulemin. Realistically, we know we aren’t going to trade him at the deadline unless we just suck the big one next year and are looking for the basement.  So we need to know now – resign or package in a trade for something you do intend to keep around…

        • Cameron19

          rustynail Cameron19 leafscapguru ingy56 B_Leaf No, Liles.

        • Mind Bomb

          ingy56 Mind Bomb Cameron19 B_Leaf  Nonis should have already had discussions about an extension Ingy, especially going into the Draft were this year and extra 1st would have mattered. 
          Right ? or am I wrong here ?

        • http://i.imgur.com/MyKj5C3.gif ingy56

          Mind Bomb ingy56 Cameron19 B_Leaf Maybe he has, who knows? Like I said, I hate to see him go but this discussion started with packaging a top prospect with Liles to see him go. That’s a bad move in my opinion and Kulie has value and would give cap space, plus a return. I still believe Liles has value though and we have to be patient.

        • Mind Bomb

          ingy56 Mind Bomb Cameron19 B_Leaf  Maybe Ingy thats the St lou trade for a D man 
          Your right though just have to be patient, I just wish I trusted Nonis lol

        • B_Leaf

          ingy56 Mind Bomb Cameron19 B_Leaf 
          Kule>>>>>>Percy,  imo

        • B_Leaf

          ingy56 Mind Bomb Cameron19 
          So it sounds like everyone would just rather buyout Liles than trade a prospect like Percy…and i don’t disagree…if a trade can be made to relieve $2M in space that would help too…I guess Percy is safe for now. Lets hope the cap jumps up pretty significantly next year.

        • Mind Bomb

          B_Leaf ingy56 Mind Bomb Cameron19  It will there is no way Bettman would admit to a Loss, He would cook the books to make it look good, and the Cap would raise :)

        • leafscapguru

          Mind Bomb B_Leaf ingy56 Cameron19 considering the nhl is having a lot of winter classic games going on next season there will be huge profits as that’s one of the biggest money makers for the NHL

    • Tommy Cat

      B_Leaf I definately don’t like the idea of using prospects to help fix cap mistakes.  I like us getting the prospects!!!

    • dlb eh

      B_Leaf 
      it’s part of why i have a hunch Gunnar will be moved first … i won’t repost the hunk i just posted below, but it splains it

      • B_Leaf

        dlb eh B_Leaf 
        But then again it comes back to why sign Clarkson and buy out Grabs. One decision impacts the next. If losing Gunnarsson is part of the plan, I don’t like it.

  • http://i.imgur.com/MyKj5C3.gif ingy56

    https://twitter.com/HennyTweetshttps://twitter.com/HennyTweets/status/354589981102182401
    Goalie coach rick st croix on the ice with prospects sparks, bibeau, millen and gibson . https://twitter.com/search?q=%23tmltalk&src=hash http://t.co/Z4KcMyMxKZ
    Is that Charlie Millen? (Greg’s kid)

    • http://i.imgur.com/MyKj5C3.gif ingy56

      -Keon- Thought so, must have given him a tryout.

      • dlb eh

        ingy56 -Keon- 
        i don’t think it’s a tryout as much as an invite to learn something and fill out the numbers

      • http://i.imgur.com/MyKj5C3.gif ingy56

        dlb eh ingy56 -Keon- Probably right, he’s probably on track to getting on an NCAA team first.

  • http://i.imgur.com/MyKj5C3.gif ingy56

    Cherry’s going off about Sequins treatment by the Bruins. I wonder if he’s be upset if his last name was Sequinsson?

  • Cameron19

    -Keon- What has caught your eye about Knodel?

    • Mind Bomb

      Cameron19 -Keon-  is he a Role Knodel ?

  • rustynail

    https://twitter.com/reporterchrishttps://twitter.com/reporterchris/status/354593686618767360
    Claude Giroux got a front-loaded extension from https://twitter.com/search?q=%23flyers&src=hash. He’ll earn $10M in 2014-15 followed by $9M, $9M, $9M, $9M, $8M, $7.2M, $5M.

  • Burtonboy

    https://twitter.com/HennyTweets
    https://twitter.com/HennyTweets a half dozen leaf veterans are here today in off ice training while rookie camp kicks off….https://twitter.com/search?q=%23rolemodels&src=hash

  • mcloki

    I hope they vote Pat Burns into the Hall of Fame today.

    • Mind Bomb

      mcloki  They Should MC, for sure.

    • http://i.imgur.com/MyKj5C3.gif ingy56

      mcloki They should have done it while he was still with us.

  • 2minutes

    With Peteiangelo still unsigned, does anyone think the Leafs should make a play for him? Franson, Kuli and a 1st or something? Dump Liles to make room.

    • Greg Fenton

      2minutes Its very unlikely Pieternagelo gets moved, but yes they should (whats the harm), but that package wouldn’t come close to getting him out of St. Louis.

      • 2minutes

        Ya, they’d be after Kadri. Maybe Reilly, Kuli, 1st. Itd end up being a wild bidding war around the league which would end up being something ridiculous.

        • http://i.imgur.com/MyKj5C3.gif ingy56

          2minutes not to mention they would still have to sign him and Nonis would be in a very bad position after trading all those assets for him. Likely have to overpay or risk an offer sheet. They have to draft a Pietrangelo, not trade for one.

        • Cameron19

          2minutes Odds are, he wouldn’t live up to the price if that’s the case. This isn’t like the 90’s where if you throw 5 prospects and high picks at a team you’ll still win the trade as long as you got the “best player” at that particular moment.  The cap alone has changed all that.  Just ask Edmonton how hard it is to put together a quality supporting cast….

        • Greg Fenton

          ingy56 2minutes But they aren’t going to be in a position to draft a player like that for a while (unless the team implodes or they blow it up). Burke put the Leafs on a direction were they have to trade for or sign players like that, not draft them.

        • 2minutes

          Ya, but then we are in a position to lock him up long term. He’s the kind of player we could really use if Franson goes. You’d definitely end up overpaying on the trade, but I don’t know about contract. You can always match an offer sheer, and I’d it’s too wildly high, take the 4 1st round picks or whatever.

        • Greg Fenton

          Cameron19 2minutes The Leafs have a quality supporting cast, and its one that could afford to take a few hits to get the top tier guy(s) the team is lacking. 
          And its much easier to build a supporting cast then a group of star players.

        • http://i.imgur.com/MyKj5C3.gif ingy56

          Greg Fenton ingy56 2minutes If they aren’t in that position that means they are succeeding on the ice and I’m more than fine with that.

        • Greg Fenton

          ingy56 Greg Fenton 2minutes Define succeeding. 
          If you mean being a bubble team, maybe winning a round in the playoffs, sure.

        • 2minutes

          He will be one of the premier defenseman over the next decade. It’s harder for edmonton because nobody wants to play in shitty Edmonton. With the cap going up, we could afford the 6M price tag.

        • http://i.imgur.com/MyKj5C3.gif ingy56

          Greg Fenton ingy56 2minutes Getting in the playoffs, winning a couple of rounds and looking like they are ready to take the next step. Only one team wins it all.

        • Cameron19

          Greg Fenton ingy56 2minutes Elite players aren’t exclusive to the top of the draft. They do get drafted outside the top 10, you know…Kopitar, Weber, Richards, Getzlaf, Eberle, Giroux, Seabrook, Karlsson, Kronwall, McDonagh, Letang, Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Benn, Carlson, etc….That’s just off the top of my head…

        • Cameron19

          Greg Fenton Cameron19 2minutes Well Edmonton’s been trying for 5 years and have so far added Ference and Gordon….

        • Cameron19

          2minutes He says he will not entertain anything that doesn’t start with a 7.

        • dlb eh

          Greg Fenton Cameron19 2minutes 
          definately.  but its the supporting cast we’re looking to find now, else D’Amigo and Colbourne are front runners.

        • Greg Fenton

          ingy56 Greg Fenton 2minutes But without that top tier talent, it becomes next to impossible to take that next step. The Leafs end up being a middle of the pack/bubble team that gets to teh 2nd round one year, doesn’t the next etc… for the next 5-6 years. Thats not succeeding.

        • http://i.imgur.com/MyKj5C3.gif ingy56

          Greg Fenton ingy56 2minutes Seemed to work for Detroit, they drafted late every season yet still was able to add very talented players.

        • Greg Fenton

          Cameron19 The majority of them come from the top – and McDonagh, Been, Carlson, Kronwall, Richards, Seabrook? Really? Geez, when you call half the league elite of course there are going to be lots drafted all over the place.  
          according to your level of “elite” Franson and van Riemsdyk are elite players.

        • Greg Fenton

          Cameron19 Greg Fenton 2minutes How long have the Leafs been looking for top talent?

        • Cameron19

          Greg Fenton Cameron19 2minutes They’ve added it consistently. Kessel, Phaneuf, J.V.R., Kadri, Rielly, Gardiner, Lupul…They use multiple avenues.

        • MaxwellHowe

          Greg Fenton Cameron19 2minutes Fair to say the Leafs have managed to snag a few elite players.  JVR, Kessel, Reilly are elite by anyone’s standards.

        • Greg Fenton

          ingy56 Greg Fenton 2minutes Detroit got lucky with Datsyuk and Zetterberg. 
          In the mid-late 90’s and into the early 2000’s there was a 9 year period were 4 teams won the cup – Wings, Devils, Stars and Av’s. The Wings got lucky with early picks and have stayed on top. What have hte other 3, who didn’t get so lucky, done? Are they still the power houses they once were?

        • Cameron19

          MaxwellHowe Greg Fenton Cameron19 2minutes Fenton things only the top 5 players in the world count as elite.

        • Greg Fenton

          Cameron19 Greg Fenton 2minutes Like I said, great support cast but any elite.

        • Greg Fenton

          MaxwellHowe Greg Fenton Cameron19 2minutes Except by anyone who knows hockey.

        • Cameron19

          Greg Fenton Cameron19 2minutes lol, Those are all core quality players – they’re not a supporting cast.  Supporting casts are players like Bolland, Clarkson, Kulemin, Gunnarsson, etc…

        • MaxwellHowe

          Greg Fenton ingy56 2minutes Lucky?  The Wings have been making great late picks and developing talent wisely for years.  At some point it should be acknowledged that luck has nothing to do with it.

        • Cameron19

          Greg Fenton MaxwellHowe Cameron19 2minutes

          “Except by anyone who knows hockey.”

          Oh Dear God, I hope you’re not talking about yourself…

        • Greg Fenton

          MaxwellHowe Greg Fenton Cameron19 2minutes If those guys are elite, we need to create/talk about the level about elite (franchise player I guess) because players like Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos, Tavares, Toews, Kane, Chara, Weber – they are on a different level then anyone the Leafs have. 
          So those guys are elite players, cool. The Leafs have elite talent but are missing the franchise talent the top teams have.

        • Greg Fenton

          Cameron19 Greg Fenton MaxwellHowe 2minutes Rigt. Tell me again how Kulemin and Colborne are goign to be traded for Eriksson or how the Islanders will have no choice but give up Strome to get rid of DiPietro.

        • Cameron19

          Greg Fenton MaxwellHowe Cameron19 2minutes What has Stamkos done other than score a lot of meaningless goals on the PP once his team was already down 4-0?  Weber, without Suter, looked like he was in the exact same class as Phaneuf.  Kessel is better than Kane. No, we don’t have a Crosby, Malkin, Tavares or Toews, but I think it’s idiotic that we should just put off team building until we can get one of them in the draft.

        • Cameron19

          Greg Fenton Cameron19 MaxwellHowe 2minutes I never said those things, but okay.  I said Kulemin+Colborne+1st – which to me, is better than the bucket of problems they gave up for Seguin, whilst giving away 3 young assets to do it. Time will prove me right there. 

          Also never said the Islanders would have no choice.  Said I couldn’t see Wang doling out that cash and that I was really  hopeful for a deal like that. Again, since a similar deal nearly happened with Tampa, I think the point had merit, however much you may try to deny it now.

        • Greg Fenton

          MaxwellHowe Greg Fenton ingy56 2minutes In the 80’s they were a head of the rest of the league in scouting and drafted European players. Since the early-mid 90’s they’ve made two great picks – Datsyuk and Zetterberg – which have carried that franchise through their last core retiring. They don’t appear to have anyone in the system ready to take over from those 2 and in a few years when those guys are over the hill and/or retire they will most likely follow the Devils, Avs and Stars into having to rebuild. 
          The Wings are a great example of building through the draft, I’d be thrilled if Burke had followed their example. The thing with the Wings is, they got lucky with a 5th and 6th round picks in back to back years. In almost every other situation when you have two players like that (Penguins, Capitals, Black hawks) those guys come with early picks. If a team is able to do it with 5th and 6th round picks, great. However the important thing is getting the talent and if you have to draft early to get it……thats what a GM/team should do.

        • Greg Fenton

          Cameron19 Greg Fenton MaxwellHowe 2minutes Remember cameron, the Nile is a river in Egypt.

        • MaxwellHowe

          Greg Fenton Cameron19 MaxwellHowe 2minutes Thats weak.  People post opinion and semi-drunken rants here.  Do you want everyone writing down your various opinions, which generally range from skepticism to cynicism, and throwing them in your face?

        • Greg Fenton

          Cameron19 Greg Fenton MaxwellHowe 2minutes So STamkos isn’t a franchise player and I don’t know hockey………wow
          Team building/rebuild is about getting the talented needed to win (and not just make the playoffs, Win a championship, win a cup). Teams that win cups have franchise players like that. 
          Getting 1-2-3 players on that level, should be Noni’s #1 priority.

        • colino17

          Greg Fenton Cameron19 MaxwellHowe 2minutes How?

        • 2minutes

          Ok… 7 years, 6.5M lol

        • MaxwellHowe

          Greg Fenton Cameron19 MaxwellHowe 2minutes Maybe developing that top tier talent is an option as well.  Certainly the most cap friendly option. Investing in the best development system in the world should be the Leafs goal.

        • Greg Fenton

          MaxwellHowe Greg Fenton Cameron19 2minutes Go for it. 
          When someone is telling me I don’t know what Im talking about but they do and not that long ago claimed they did and made a few calls that were wrong and argued with me about, I’ll bring them up. Its not like I brought them up “just beacuse”. Though those things I mentioned were just thrown out opinions or drunken rants, they were things Cameron were saying were going to happen and was flat out telling me I was wrong and didn’t know what I was talking about when I disagreed with him. 
          And absolutely, do it to me. I tend to own up to things when I’m wrong and it doesn’t upset me. And like most people if I’m right about 1-2 things in a row I tend to get cocky and having the times I’m wrong thrown in my face isn’t a bad thing.

        • MaxwellHowe

          Greg Fenton MaxwellHowe Cameron19 2minutes This doesn’t have to be competitive or stressful

        • Greg Fenton

          colino17 Greg Fenton Cameron19 MaxwellHowe 2minutes How can Nonis get those players? 
          I have no idea. First, its not my job to make it happen nor do I know all the talk going on between teams and what might realisticlly be possible. Second, as I’ve said Burkes biggest failing as the GM wasn’t any of his moves, in almost every trade he got good value back and no UFA signing was silly stupid at the time, it was the direction he took the team in. Nothing wrong the Kessel trade in and of itself (for example), the problem was the team wasn’t in a position to really benefit from it yet.

        • colino17

          Greg Fenton colino17 Cameron19 MaxwellHowe 2minutes I don’t see Nonis getting another chance at a franchise player until almost a year from now…at the draft…and even then it’ll be a crapshoot because (hopefully) we won’t be picking Connor McDavid

        • Greg Fenton

          MaxwellHowe Greg Fenton Cameron19 2minutes Developing top talent is almost the only way to get top talent/ THe problem is they don’t really have any prospects who project out to be that level. Reilly……might, hopefully. But to be a franhcise player at this position, given his style he would have to be Lidstrom/Niedermayer/Bourque. I dunno if he has that level in him.

        • Greg Fenton

          MaxwellHowe Greg Fenton Cameron19 2minutes You’re right, and I don’t keep logs of everything people say or anything like that. And granted my “any who knows hockey” line might have been a bit much. 
          But when someone (like cameron) has told me I’m wrong about several things in the recent past, and then does it again without any sense of humility about being wrong…..that does bug me a bit.

        • MaxwellHowe

          Greg Fenton MaxwellHowe Cameron19 2minutes fair enough, but lets leave the job of pointing out our past mistakes and fuck ups to our spouses / girlfriends

        • colino17

          MaxwellHowe Greg Fenton Cameron19 2minutes now everybody hug and make up

        • Greg Fenton

          colino17 Greg Fenton Cameron19 MaxwellHowe 2minutes I don’t think they’ll be in a position to draft that early for a while. 
          What I see happening is, they’ll lock up Kessel and Phaneuf (probably cost between 15-16 million combined), Gardiner and maybe Reimer next year, and the core of this team will be set for the next 5-8 years and we’ll basically have another “Muskoka Five” (a core group locked up for several seasons, with NTC/NMC) that will be good enough to make the playoffs most/each year but never really a contender. 
          Now, something could happen to change that, but as things stand now…..

        • MaxwellHowe

          colino17 Greg Fenton Cameron19 No lets get back to arguing. This isn’t a Senator fan site

        • colino17

          Who is your franchise player on LA? I don’t think you NEED a franchise
          player to win a cup if you have the right balance throughout the lineup

        • Greg Fenton

          colino17 Kopitar, Doughty, Quick.

        • http://mapleleafshotstove.com/ Radar O’Rielly

          Greg Fenton colino17 Would they be franchise if they were split up and on different teams?

        • Greg Fenton

          colino17 I can’t think of a single team that has wont he cup with “balance” over having franchise talent. Maybe the 1993 and 1986 Habs, but Patrick Roy goes a LONG way to making up for a lack of talent.

        • colino17

          Greg Fenton colino17 Cameron19 MaxwellHowe 2minutes There were a few years there in the early 2000s where the leafs were legit contenders….think the year well went to the semis on the backs of Roberts and McCauley with Sundin and Tucker injured for much of the playoffs

        • Greg Fenton

          Radar O’Rielly Greg Fenton colino17 Absolutly. 
          If Lombardi lost his mind and decided to go with Carter and Richards as this #1-#2 center and trade Kopitar, he’d fit in as #1 center on almost any team int he league. Same with Doughty.

        • colino17

          Greg Fenton colino17 Depends on your definition of “franchise”…seems like you are casting the net pretty wide and doing the same thing you were chastising Cam for doing with his definition of “elite”….Kessel is pretty close to Kopitar level and Phaneuf is not too far behind Doughty

        • Greg Fenton

          colino17 Greg Fenton Cameron19 MaxwellHowe 2minutes There is a different between a 1 year run and being a contender.

        • colino17

          Greg Fenton colino17 Cameron19 MaxwellHowe 2minutes That year was an example given of the team in that era…There were a few years there were people were listing the Leafs as serious contenders

        • Greg Fenton

          colino17 Greg Fenton But Kessel and Phaneuf are behind them – thats elite vs franchise. A player who can carry team vs a player who can’t. 
          A franchise player is that guy you can build around, who can carry team etc… There is also a certain “intangable” quality to them as well. I think most people would have built a team around Thornton in his prime before Marleau. What made Alfredsson a franchise winger and not Hossa…. What made Sundin a guy to build around but not Mogilny? 
          A test I like too/tend to use is this – if you and 4-5 friends were given a brand new team and could pick 1 forward (not Crosby), 1 D-man and 1 goalie from ANY team to build around, who are the players that would guys would be talking about taking?

        • Greg Fenton

          colino17 Greg Fenton Cameron19 MaxwellHowe 2minutes I think thats debatable. I remember most serous hockey people (Fans and in the media) not really considering the Leafs among the top teams during those years. However, that was also the last time the Leafs have a franchise player (Sundin). 
          But I’m talking about the Muskoka Five 4-5 years after that, during the Ferguson era.

        • colino17

          Greg Fenton colino17 But that’s incredibly subjective….Kessel keeps looking better…and Phaneuf has been carrying a bigger load than almost every D man in the league and still playing at a high level…to dismiss them to easily is foolish…they are the guys you build around

        • Greg Fenton

          colino17 Greg Fenton It is, and there is a subjective quality to sports in general, thats why scouts exist. 
          But I think most objective people would be tlaking about forwads like Malkin, Stamkos, Datsyuk, Tavares, Toews, and ugys like Kessel, Hossa, Zetterberg wouldn’t be guys that anyone would take first. While it is a bit subjective, it also does make the divisions somewhat clear. 
          Kessel and Phaneuf aren’t guys you can build around though. They are good #2 guys. They are Hossa and Subban. Not Malkin and Chara. The lines between those guys isn’t always objectively defined, but it is there.

        • Greg Fenton

          colino17 Greg Fenton When the Leafs traded for Phaneuf, I liked the deal (if not hte direction). I said there was no reason Phaneuf can’t be the best D-man in the league he has all the tools. He just hasn’t been able to put it all together. 
          I’ve been saying since the start of last season that Kessel is/has been showing flashs of being able to be a franchise player but has yet to show he can consistently play at that level.

        • Bobsyouruncle

          Greg Fenton Cameron19 Oh come on. You can’t be suggesting that Franson and JVR are on the same level as the players above.  
          Also you’re saying JVR is not elite which is fine, but with JVR a 2nd overall draft pick he comes from precisely the area you say we need to draft to get elite payers, indicating that your plan does not work. You can’t have both sides of the argument when it suits you.

        • Greg Fenton

          Bobsyouruncle Greg Fenton Cameron19 Just because he was thought to have franchise player or elite player potential at one point doesn’t mean he is that player now. It doesn’t matter were he was drafted. 
          I’m not saying EVERY early pick (lets say top 5 or top 10) was a franchise talent, but just that most of them come from those early picks.

        • Greg Fenton

          Bobsyouruncle Greg Fenton Cameron19 Ignore my first point, I misread your post. 
          But the 2nd one (that not ever early pick is a franchise player) still stands, thats not what I (or anyone) is saying. You can’t look at the pick pool and decide if thats were players come from or not. You have to look at the franchise players int he NHL (best 2-3 players on the best teams is good starting place) and see were most of them come from. 
          There are exceptions – Weber was a 2nd round pick. Datsyuk a 5th. St. Louis wasn’t drafted. The 03 draft class threw off the curve completely. But if you look at most the top players in the league, most are early picks. A team with 4 top selections in 4 years, and they might get Barker and Skille with 2 of the 4 picks, but that doesn’t mean Toews and Kane weren’t taken with top picks.

    • dlb eh

      2minutes 
      absolutely make a play for him.  but don’t hold your breath.

  • Lescott

    Lupul’s the man. Advanced stats guys are like Jonah Hill from Moneyball, except without the humour or genius.

    • MaxwellHowe

      Lescott  I still think Lupul was taking a not so subtle shot at Grabo, while defending his frequent linemate Bozak

      • B_Leaf

        MaxwellHowe Lescott 
        Not sure he was taking a shot at Grabo, but yes he was likely tipping his hat to Bozak.

      • Lescott

        Couldn’t have been taking a shot at Grabo, he played to win every game — just look at his Corsi numbers.

    • GeorgeCastanza

      @Lescott Ofcourse Lupul takes a shot at advanced stats. I was a regular visitor on PPP when Leafs dealt Beauchemin away for Lupul and Gardiner.  They went thru this whole debate  with Lupul with most trashing him based on his previous stats per games played. Only he knows what he can bring.

    • http://twitter.com/jmckelvie RielledUp

      Lescott People just don’t realize that players give 0 fucks about advanced stats. Could you imagine someone coming up to you after that Game 7 loss and being like “looks like the advanced stats finally showed”… or even in general, “hey Phil I know you scored 30 goals but man your corsi is looking bad”. Players don’t follow this stuff, they worry about their own skill and production. These guys can be right at the end, but even if the teams with bad corsi are losing, players won’t focus or even care about trying to fix the stat.

      • Lescott

        It’s horseshit trying to quantify numerically all of the qualitative gameplay. It’s really dumbing it down to simplify it in those terms.

  • dlb eh

    if Carlyle thought Frattin could “bring it” more often, what will he think of D’Amigo? Jerry will have to find a new level of courage…i don’t know that he has it in him to put his body on the line on a nightly basis. it would be nice to be wrong, of course.

    • B_Leaf

      dlb eh 
      I like what I have seen from Jerry…he is a pro. I like his PK, and his ability to raise his game at key moments. He will be a rookie so Carlyle will tune him, but I think he swims.

  • B_Leaf

    Hopefully by the time camp starts Liles is taken care of, and Gunnarson, Franson, Fraser, and Kadri are all signed. It will open up a good battle for the 6 and 7 spot on the D. With Percy, Rielly, Granberg, Blacker, MacWilliam, and maybe even Finn getting a good look. Of course other fringe players could step up too.
    We have Bozak, Kadri, Bolland, MacClement up the middle. We have Lupul, Kessel, JVR, Clarkson, Kulemin, Orr, and McLaren on the wings. That leaves room for a 12th and 13th forward.
    I think D’Amigo has the best shot, with Colborne next, followed by Ashton. Someone like Biggs or Leivo could also get a look at some point this year.

    • playoff nut

      B_Leaf Be nice to see Biggs  make it  this year

  • wendelsfist

    I think Lupul made an intelligent point.  Most stats, show Grabbo is a superior player and to which Lupul states this is not the only consideration the GM takes into account.  The problem here is we don’t know what else the GM was considering.    The only thing we can conclude is that Nonis felt Bozak brought more value to the team at his cap hit then Grabbo did even though Grabbo was the more skilled player.  
    Beyond that, there is an incredible speculative leap to conclude that Nonis is a potato or that Carlyle is pulling the strings or whatever else I have seen on twitter.  The evidence maybe interpreted to suggest that Nonis’s off season moves were questionable but we don’t have the full story .  Then again, depending on context and player usage the stats evidence can be interpreted to be positive.  

    The problem, is that neither side can show in a scientifically accepted method if the net outcome of the moves (clarkson/bolland/bernier etc) has made the team better or worse.  At the end of the day, the situation is about your opinion of these moves. And you can generate copious data that supports your view but the answer won’t get any clearer until the leafs start to play hockey.

    • jimmyg65

      wendelsfist There’s probably a lot of behind-the-scenes and on-ice stuff that Carlyle, Nonis and their team have taken into account that we’ll never know about. They may be not be right about all of it, but I’m sure they gave it careful thought and made a very careful decision based on what they know and/or think they know. It drives me crazy when these twitter GMs act like Carlyle’s asleep at the bench and Nonis drunk up in the GM’s box. 
      One of the reasons the Leafs brass might have chosen Bozak over Grabo is that many of Grabo’s skills and shortcomings are mirrored in Kadri, who, in the end, has a much higher upside and is still an RFA. Bozak may not be as good as Grabo, but he brings some different skill sets (faceoffs, PK, etc) that Grabo lacks. In a Cap system, this happens on every team.
      In the end, they had to make a tough choice. You can disagree with it, but they’re not throwing darts at a board.

  • Claymish

    Advanced stats people can you provide me with some answers? How many shots did Grabovski take? How many actually hit the net? Of those that hit the net, how many weren’t shot directly into a goalies chest? How about how many of the shots he missed the net ended up flying around the boards and out of the offensive zone? Now for passing, how many pass attempts versus shot attempts? How many of those pass attempts reached the intended player? Are there stats for the number of times a teammate was in the clear for a pass which would have resulted in an easy goal, that he didn’t see? What about the statistics coming out of the defensive zone? Percentage of passes made versus attempts to carry the puck through the neutral zone himself? Missed opportunities to catch a teammate breaking through the neutral zone?…If advanced stats can’t provide us answers to what we actually see, then they are useless.

    • wendelsfist

      Claymish Most teams track their own stats such as puck touches, who wins 50/50 puck battles, turnovers and scoring chances etc. And perhaps others which you  mention but these stats are proprietary. 
      I do think teams look at various stats but with more context and consideration of what else the player brings to the team  then anyone on twitter does.  Then again I’m guessing they do this and I don’t really know.

      • Claymish

        wendelsfist Claymish Well clearly the team tracked what us fans saw with our own two eyes. Grabovski is like a stripper, showed you what you wanted but didn’t give you what you need.

    • Tim Horton

      can you tell me how many  times he has done all that from watching the game? What you saw can not be trusted because everyone sees the game differently. 
      Chances are you see one bad turn over and its sticks out in your mind so you consider him a turnover machine. When in fact he has a lot less giveaways than half the team. Give me something measurable over a fans biased opinion any day.

      • Claymish

        Tim Horton No I’m not calling him a turnover machine. His puck possession is very high, everyone can attest to seeing him have control of the play when he is on the ice. What I’m saying is that is all he does, carry the puck around like a dog with a bone not giving it up, not sharing, running around with blinders on. He gave us plenty of excitement when he was on the ice, but followed by disappointment with no results. Tim Horton I was asking for advanced stats answering my questions, if they show otherwise then I can admit fault.

        • Tim Horton

          Claymish Tim Horton It was an example of biased opinion not calling out anything in particular. I failed stats 2 in University, so I am not what you would call a stats man, but counting them out is plain ignorant. 
          Most of those stats you mentioned would actually be easy to track.  And I am sure if advanced stats were more commonly accepted they would be tracked more. But judging from the reception in here most people have made up their mind already.

  • Dink

    After listening to Loiselle this morning, I got to think maybe our defense will be fine with Gunnerson and Gardiner completely healthy and getting some usages out of Brennan and Grannberg…
    and who knows about Reilly, this could all be good.

    • Dink

      TheCanucksnaphook I thought his look on things was very positive and accurate..
      Kind of think they want Reilly to develop more unless he blows them out of the water.

      • Dink

        TheCanucksnaphook Loiselle was really looking forward to seeing Grannberg though

    • Waiting4LSC

      Did he say anything interesting about Granberg?

      • Dink

        Waiting4LSC yes he was very optimistic about Grannbergs chances

    • Archie Vanlanda

      TheCanucksnaphook Shouldn’t you be down at Mastercard Centre, Ive been waiting for an update from you all morning.

      • Archie Vanlanda

        TheCanucksnaphook Archie Vanlanda That too bad. I enjoyed the updates you gave us last year. There have been some pictures on twitter of some on ice activity this morning, but that might not be official camp stuff yet.

      • Waiting4LSC

        They don’t, you are correct. They provide good analysis, constructive views and thinking (other than PPP). They don’t get into negativity and superficiality. They speculate on sound bases, but cannot have insight.nthat is purely the pervay of the MSM. We must never forget that, and respect everything MLSE does and tells us. Right!

  • Waiting4LSC

    Everything has its place, but for me te eye will always be the best measure. Puts everything into context.

  • Dougie Wraparound

    Who cares? Grabo obviously rates a 9.5 on the asshole-meter. That’s all that matters.

    • Bobsyouruncle

      Dougie Wraparound LOL   You get a 10.0 for that.  : )

    • 2minutes

      Ya, which works out great when he’s biting Habs or punching out their fans.

    • Mind Bomb

      Dougie Wraparound  Funny though, when he was fighting * Tooth* and nail for us, he was a Hero. 
      Remember He did not screw us over, Nonis screwed him !

      • 2minutes

        Well, to be honest, he kind of screwed himself signing a big contract, but you can’t blame him. And I suppose he didn’t screw himself, cause he ended up with a fat payday and will end up signing for 4.5M atleast anyways.

  • MaxwellHowe

    TheCanucksnaphook Betcha Grabovski knows his corsi stats inside and out (Ok, that was catty)

  • Burtonboy

    Interesting that the vast majority of Clarkson’s salary is paid as bonus 
    http://www.capgeek.com/player/780

    • rustynail

      Burtonboyhttps://twitter.com/reporterchrishttps://twitter.com/reporterchris/status/354609527112470528
      David Clarkson will receive 76% of his https://twitter.com/search?q=%23leafs&src=hash compensation in annual installments paid each July 1 through 2019.

      • Burtonboy

        rustynail Burtonboy Fascinating . Bonuses are immune to buyouts too apparently

        • rustynail

          Burtonboy rustynail depends on the exact wording of the contract

        • rustynail

          Burtonboy rustynailSigning bonuses can affect buyout amounts depending on the language of the contract. Vincent Lecavalier’s 2009-2020 contract, for example, specified “non-refundable” signing bonuses, meaning he received them in addition to his 2013 compliance buyout payments. Other contracts specify that the signing bonuses are contingent upon the player fulfilling the contract.>>> per cap geek

        • Burtonboy

          rustynail Burtonboy Interesting stuff . I agree wit Radar . If I was a player I would rather have it this way . Likely a pretty attractive option for Carkson too . Not many team would be able to pay up front like that so advantage Leafs

      • http://mapleleafshotstove.com/ Radar O’Rielly

        rustynail Burtonboy If I’m a player this is how I would want it as well.  You can do much more with a lump sum than a bi weekly payment.

        • http://i.imgur.com/MyKj5C3.gif ingy56

          Radar O’Rielly rustynail Burtonboy For sure, it should help him make up for that “money left on the table” if he invests it wisely.

    • 2minutes

      Yup. Nobody mentions it here, but near the end of his contract he will be making peanuts in salary, but carry a large cap hit. Teams looking to get to the cap floor, but don’t want to spend actual money might want to being him on to reach the floor.

      • Numbersgame

        It just like the Tim Thomas, trade 5-7 years from now we will say that was a smart decision

  • rustynail

    https://twitter.com/wewantacupcomhttps://twitter.com/wewantacupcom/status/354611048260714497
    3 on 2 from prospect camp http://t.co/FTfJVa3KBK

  • rustynail

    https://twitter.com/MarkUkLeafhttps://twitter.com/MarkUkLeaf/status/354610654423953408
    Bill Sweatt joins Greg Scott at Brynäs.

    • Mind Bomb

      rustynail  Should not have turned down the leafs Sweat !

      • http://i.imgur.com/MyKj5C3.gif ingy56

        Mind Bomb rustynail No Sweatt…he sucks.

        • Mind Bomb

          ingy56 Mind Bomb rustynail Hahah, never actually watched him play a game.

  • rustynail

    https://twitter.com/wewantacupcomhttps://twitter.com/wewantacupcom/status/354612000380297218
    Media surrounding Reilly http://t.co/ZEcbnVDW0s

    • rustynail

      TheCanucksnaphook rustynail does that mean you will be there tomorrow?

      • rustynail

        TheCanucksnaphook rustynail  it will be rained out

  • rustynail

    https://twitter.com/wewantacupcomhttps://twitter.com/wewantacupcom/status/354612275711201281
    RC take it all in at https://twitter.com/search?q=%23leafs&src=hash prospect camp http://t.co/6OdDlPm5yW

    • ProfessorRance

      rustynail Way to rock those shorts Randy!

    • leafmealone

      rustynail Is that Alex Anthopolous on his left?

      • http://i.imgur.com/MyKj5C3.gif ingy56

        leafmealone rustynail Looks like Friedman.

  • http://i.imgur.com/MyKj5C3.gif ingy56

    https://twitter.com/NHLhistorygirlhttps://twitter.com/NHLhistorygirl/status/354614513288486914
    “Dion [Phaneuf] doesn’t know any name plates, he just knows sweater colours. And that’s the great thing about his game.”-https://twitter.com/search?q=%23Flames&src=hash Mike Keenan

  • Burtonboy

    https://twitter.com/brozie42https://twitter.com/brozie42/status/354614474851880960
    I was going to be in the ESPN Body Issue instead of https://twitter.com/JLupul, but I couldn’t convince https://twitter.com/PKessel81 to pose with me

    • ProfessorRance

      Burtonboy Not sure if he’s joking or serious.

      • http://mapleleafshotstove.com/ Radar O’Rielly

        ProfessorRance Burtonboy It might help you to know that that is not the real Bolzak twitter feed.

        • ProfessorRance

          Radar O’Rielly ProfessorRance Burtonboy I’m worried slightly less now thanks.

  • DWCMLHS

    Well you did kind of pick a fight, lol. You tweeted that Colin guy just to tell him they’re “an irritating bunch of whiners”.

    • leafscapguru

      DWCMLHS was just on that site omg I cant stand those ppl. I felt like writing I love Nonis just to see the site explode lol

    • http://i.imgur.com/MyKj5C3.gif ingy56

      TheCanucksnaphook DWCMLHS Burning his Bozak sweater, yeah that was real intelligent but begs the question if he was so smart why did he have a Bozak sweater to begin with?

    • rustynail

      DWCMLHS did he respond with his hockey experience:)

    • maddog_mitchell

      TheCanucksnaphook ingy56 those guys drive me nuts, especially Stephen Burtch… it really doesn’t even seem like they get any enjoyment at all from actually sitting down, having a beer and watching a hockey game… if they spent less time worrying about corsi, fenwick, QofC, etc, they might actually remember that just watching the game can be a whole lot of fun…

  • http://i.imgur.com/MyKj5C3.gif ingy56

    https://twitter.com/NHLhistorygirlhttps://twitter.com/NHLhistorygirl/status/354617523464966144
    John Ferguson Jr’s first job was painting houses in Winnipeg. https://twitter.com/search?q=%23RandomNHLfact&src=hashhttps://twitter.com/DownGoesBrownhttps://twitter.com/DownGoesBrown/status/354617666679472131
    https://twitter.com/NHLhistorygirl Enjoyed watching paint dry so much he built his future teams around it.

  • Pent_House

    Really? an article about a twitter battle……..wtf

  • Pent_House

    Take that calculator…..shine it up reaaaaal nice, turn it side-ways, and stick up your roody-poo candy asssss!

    • http://mapleleafshotstove.com/ Radar O’Rielly

      Pent_House Didn’t that The Rock was among us!

      • Pent_House

        Radar O’Rielly Pent_House Finally……the Pent_House has returned to MLHS……. I’ve come to slap these advanced stats Jabroni’s.  Do you smelllllllllllouw what Pent_House is coooking….

        • http://mapleleafshotstove.com/ Radar O’Rielly

          TheCanucksnaphook Pent_House Radar O’Rielly 
          Snitch was pretty good actually.

        • Pent_House

          TheCanucksnaphook Pent_House Radar O’Rielly
          http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1241&bih=584&q=the+people%27s+eyebrow&oq=the+people%27s+eyebrow&gs_l=img.3..0l4.61.3952.0.4192.24.12.2.9.9.1.186.1429.3j9.12.0…0.0.0..1ac.1.17.img.uo3ZMOjSdGY#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=MAG75KDix_Pt9M%3A%3B0UoR1iPIptZEgM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252F24.media.tumblr.com%252Ftumblr_lzu75pT5JS1qgwxx1o1_400.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.tumblr.com%252Ftagged%252Fthe%252520peoples%252520eyebrow%3B320%3B400

        • leafmealone

          TheCanucksnaphook Pent_House Radar O’Rielly The Rundown was pretty funny.

        • leafmealone

          Pent_House TheCanucksnaphook Radar O’Rielly lol. Longest pasted url ever!

        • http://i.imgur.com/MyKj5C3.gif ingy56

          Pent_House Radar O’Rielly The Rock is great, bad wrestler but on the mic he’s one of the best ever.

        • Pent_House

          leafmealone Pent_House TheCanucksnaphook Radar O’Rielly It was for the Milllions…………..and MILLLIONSSS of The Pent_House’s fans

  • http://i.imgur.com/MyKj5C3.gif ingy56

    https://twitter.com/HennyTweetshttps://twitter.com/HennyTweets/status/354619847184879618
    2013 1st rounder frederik gauthier….6-5 and 215 lbs..stands tall at camp. https://twitter.com/search?q=%23tmltalk&src=hash http://t.co/9O2bBH1kyP

    • http://i.imgur.com/MyKj5C3.gif ingy56

      TheCanucksnaphook ingy56 Look at the size of his skates.

      • http://i.imgur.com/MyKj5C3.gif ingy56

        TheCanucksnaphook ingy56 Shit…time for a Crying Game shower…thanks a lot!

      • wiski

        TheCanucksnaphook Are you at the rink snap?

      • http://mapleleafshotstove.com/ Radar O’Rielly

        wiski TheCanucksnaphook nah the douche slept til 10

      • Mind Bomb

        ingy56 TheCanucksnaphook Size Queen

    • bermudaboy

      ingy56 Joel Otto in the making…..

  • rustynail

    https://twitter.com/DavidAlter590https://twitter.com/DavidAlter590/status/354620108267732994
    As part of orientation, https://twitter.com/search?q=%23Leafs&src=hash prospects being trained on social media. https://twitter.com/search?q=%23Seguin&src=hash

    • Area49th

      rustynail Don’t be Stupid, by Shania Twain is theme

    • http://i.imgur.com/MyKj5C3.gif ingy56

      rustynail Should be easy…here’s what not to do. #Sequins

      • http://i.imgur.com/MyKj5C3.gif ingy56

        LN-093 ingy56 rustynail Well, that and his play, but you don’t criticize Mr. Almighty 1400 games coached.

  • rustynail

    https://twitter.com/RenLavoieRDShttps://twitter.com/RenLavoieRDS/status/354621316646715393
    Escrow for NHL players should be around 17 % for the 2013 season. HRR estimate at $2.2 Billion. https://twitter.com/search?q=%23RDS&src=hash

    • Pent_House

      rustynail Not bad for a half season coming off a lock-out

  • rustynail

    https://twitter.com/JoshRimerHockeyhttps://twitter.com/JoshRimerHockey/status/354621503779774464
    NY Islanders re-sign Cal Clutterbuck to a 4 year contract.

    • Pent_House

      rustynail Isles don’t give out the numbers do they?

      • http://i.imgur.com/MyKj5C3.gif ingy56

        Pent_House rustynail 11 million I read.

        • Pent_House

          ingy56 Pent_House rustynail 2.75 not bad. He’ll  be on their 3rd line then. Isles have been improving below the radar.

  • rustynail

    So when the hell is Nonis gonna get off his ass and sign some of our RFA’s? :)

    • Pent_House

      rustynail Spencer Abbott will be signed shortly 😉

    • Burtonboy

      rustynail September …just to drive everyone nuts lol

      • http://i.imgur.com/MyKj5C3.gif ingy56

        Burtonboy rustynail Nonis loves twisting the knife into the PPP crowd.

    • Greg Fenton

      rustynail Once he talks them all out of wanting 5.5 million a year.

    • Lescott

      Pretty sure he can do that sitting.