Now what?

527

The John Michael Liles buyout watch is officially over, for this year, anyway.

Nazem Kadri and Cody Franson are still RFAs, and the Leafs currently have just 4.9M in cap space to retain them both. While many have pointed out that Korbinian Holzer and Trevor Smith are accounted for on the Leafs capgeek roster even though neither figures to make the team, it also has to be said that the Leafs aren’t going to play with a roster holding the bare minimum of 12 forwards and six defensemen all year. Something has to give.

There are a few different ways things can turn out now.

The attention will still probably be on Liles because he sticks out as the bad contract on the team plus he’s not exactly a great fit anymore due to his contract and the surplus of defensemen in the Leafs organization. While the ideal situation would be trading him away for a draft pick and being rid of his contract to create 3.8M in cap space, that seems pretty unlikely right now.

However, the Leafs might be able to flip Liles to another team in exchange for another bad contract that isn’t as burdensome as Liles’ deal is. Teams that have the cap space and need help on defense include the Islanders, Panthers, Avalanche, Coyotes and the Capitals. Each team has a player or two that is sort of on the outs, or doesn’t have a great contract either that you can envision the Leafs swapping Liles for (Carkner, Bergenheim, Hunwick, Klesla, Chimera, for instance). Now, Liles had a really rough year being healthy scratched for 12 straight games, and scoring at a 28 point pace; if that’s not enough, he’s turning 33 this year, has three years left on his deal, and has a modified no trade clause. Moving him won’t be easy.

Failing trading Liles, the Leafs might be forced into a more unattractive alternative like trading Nikolai Kulemin or the unsigned Franson.

Frankly, trading Kulemin doesn’t make much sense because his trade value most likely doesn’t correlate strongly with his on-ice value. Most people see his 30-goal season and the fact that he hasn’t come anywhere close to that since (plus, he’s extremely important defensively for the shutdown line). That said, when you look at the rest of the forwards on the Leafs with high salaries, he’s the only guy that it would make sense for them to move based on the projected top six and Bolland being brought in this summer.

Of course, as mentioned, the Leafs could also decide to trade Franson. This season Gardiner will be up with the team full-time, they just signed Ranger, they seem to really like Fraser, and they might hope for a Liles bounce-back should they not be able to fit Franson in/trade Liles.

Franson had a huge season, finishing in the top 10 for scoring by a defenseman, but he didn’t even average 20 minutes a night so his value might be a little inflated right now. Defensemen who are worse than Franson currently such as Jordan Leopold, Douglas Murray, and Robyn Regehr each netted their teams multiple picks but their GMs moved them at the trade deadline. The August and September trade market isn’t exactly the same desperate beast it is in February. Logically, it’s easy to assume that if the Leafs were going to trade Franson because of his salary demands, they would have done it at the draft.

So, perhaps the Leafs believe they can fit Franson and Kadri under the cap. On the surface that might seem tough, but despite Franson’s season maybe the Leafs are looking at PK Subban’s two year bridge deal worth 2.8M per season. There isn’t much of a precedent with Franson because he only played a 48 game season, and although he’s always been touted as a talented defenseman his TOI and point totals have never been great. He’s only really starting to put it together now. In the last few seasons, Ryan Suter, Dennis Wideman and James Wisniewski each finished in the top ten in scoring (technically Suter and Wideman were tied for 10th together in league scoring) before cashing in huge as UFAs, but all of them had a past track-record of success and were UFAs as opposed to RFAs.

Obviously Franson’s in line for a raise, but never having this level of success over a full 82 game season nor averaging at least 20 minutes a night really should bring his cap number down to something lower than what many are expecting.

Then there’s Nazem Kadri, who had a monster 44 point season this year. As good as he was, his total body of work in the NHL reads to be 63 points in 99 games, which is a .64 points per game average. In the last few years there have been other bridge contracts around Kadri’s scoring range; for example, Matt Duchene had 150 points in 219 games (.68ppg) before signing a two year deal worth 3.5M/season, and Tyler Ennis had 92 points in 140 games (.66ppg) before signing a two year deal worth 2.8M/season. Considering Kadri doesn’t have a high TOI or large sample size to draw from, he could be getting something around the Ennis range as opposed to the Duchene range.

Failing a trade or signing Kadri and Franson to low deals, the Leafs could also work the minors and count their pennies. For instance, having TJ Brennan (600K) on the team instead of Korbinian Holzer (787K) saves them a few bucks, as would Troy Bodie(600K) beating out either Frazer McLaren (700K) or Colton Orr (925K). Although unlikely, the Leafs could also waive Liles which would save them nearly a million. If he is claimed that would really help the Leafs; the downfall is that, if he isn’t, that would probably kill any trade value he has whatsoever.

The bottom line really is that, while Kadri and Franson were huge pieces for the Leafs last season and hopefully in the future, they aren’t in positions to command huge money yet. That 4.9M seems a little small to fit both in, but it might be closer than many people are giving it credit for.

Tuesday morning links…

30 Teams in 30 Days
OHL prospect wiz Brock Otten broke down the Leafs OHL prospects, of which there are nine. I really liked what he had to say about Percy and Broll in particular.

Bulking up for any available position
Kyle catches up with Joe Colborne who has interestingly gained nearly 10 pounds this summer, a summer after growing another inch. With a healthy hand again and a filled in body, I’m expecting a good year from big Joe.

Bernier saviours opportunity to battle Reimer for no. 1 job
Bernier predictably talks about how he’s excited to battle it out for the number one gig and, you know, actually having a chance at it. Now, I did think it was interesting that he said he tries to stay on his feet as long as possible because that’s a big difference from what we’ve seen in net these past few years.

Who is Dave Nonis?
Steve Simmons had a nice piece on the man that is Dave Nonis. There’s nothing here in regards to team building or his philosophy, but it’s interesting to read his journey.

Curious case of Jim Ralph
I’m a fan of Jim Ralph and it’s great if he is indeed going to return next year, but geeze what a weird situation.

Farewell column: This is the business for me
Dave Perkins’ final column was on Friday, but I still felt it was worth posting. Happy retirement, Dave.

  • mcloki

    -Keon- Who would be our backup goalie then? That’s the most important question. Lots of time to fit these two on the roster. One fits for sure. The last one needs a bit of finagling. But it’ll get done.

  • HeatherRickAkin

    My guess is that Nonis is entertaining several trade scenarios and eventually something is going to happen. I do not see the Leafs entering the regular season with absolutely no wiggle room , should a situation present itself to improve the team during the season . I see Kadri and Franson signing and staying , because they were so good last half-year, and they still have their best hockey ahead of them.  The Liles situation is not good . He is a proud pro and good team guy , but he has to feel like his time in Toronto is over, or close to it. His contact and age work against him, but as Anthony points out, there are ways to make trades work , and there are teams out there who could well use JMLs services.  The return for Liles wont be much, unless its a multi player trade, but, in this day and age, the cap rules . Finally, a nice gesture to mention Dave Perkins retiring .  Thanks to Anthony for a good wake-up read, as usual .

    • Dink

      HeatherRickAkin  After the compliance buyout passed it was like Nonis saying  to 29 GM’s: “Liles is here ..come and get him if you want him but I am not giving him away”

  • Jantz

    -Keon- Personally i don’t want to trade Reimer. He will battle it out with JB and the best man will claim a slight majority in games played. Just because Bernier was given 3/4 –  1m more per season than most of us anticipated does not mean that Carlyle will show him any special treatment. We have 2 dynamite young goalies and I’m hoping that whoever looses the starting job will still play great and only increase their trade value as time goes on.
    JR has to improve his puck handling and rebound control but i still believe he has a 50/50 chance of outplaying Bernier. Both guys have plenty of upside and i’m very confidant that one of then will become a top 6-8 goalie in this league.

  • Jantz

    Thanks for the write up Anthony.

  • MaxwellHowe

    Thanks Anthony, its good to see the cards placed on the table, so to speak.  Of course, it may be that Nonis has worked out a deal for Liles (his previous discussion of trades suggests he doesn’t hurry anything).  Or it may be that he figures he still can work a trade out.  If Streit can get $4 million, is Liles’ contract that unreasonable?  The Leafs could retain $800 000 of that salary and the contract doesn’t look so bad.  It is notable that the AVs, according to rumpor, were waiting for Liles to become a free agent so they could sign him.  Well, if that interest is out there, why hand Liles over for free?
    And maybe Nonis is taking his time because he figures that his bargaining position with Kadri/Franson is better this way.  If he had bought out Liles, the agents would take the position that the money is there, so pay up the big bucks.  Maybe Nonis figures he should sign them first, then make the moves he has resting on the back burner to right the salary cap issue.
    Or maybe Nonis has accepted that he must trade Kulimen or Gunnarsson.  IMO, Franson is a more significant asset on the backend than Gunnarsson.  he might be willing to trade the latter to keep the former.

    • Dink

      MaxwellHowe Any one of the D can be traded

    • Jantz

      Interesting take on wanting to sigh Kadri and Franson first to lower cap deals before potentially trading Liles. I just hope he plays like he did pre concussion and then the opportunity will be there at some point to make a good trade for us.
      FYI, Streit is making 5.25 for 4 more years,

  • Mind Bomb

    Good morning Folks

    • mcloki

      Mind Bomb Morning MB

      • Mind Bomb

        mcloki Mind Bomb Morning MC, man, my desk is Killer today, sometimes its not worth the day off lol, not much Hockey talk for me today, sigh

  • mcloki

    It’s going to be a slow day today.

    • Burtonboy

      mcloki Typical August for sure

  • Zep2

    -Keon- Signing Bozak and using the Compliance buyout on Bozak is the move that is getting all the criticism. Odd though that Grabs hasnt been signed since he could be got on the cheap.
    Bernier and Bolland were moves to solidify areas of percieved weakness / depth
    Bozak / Grabs were done to keep Carlyle happy . Im happy to give him a B+ but if they have to move Kulie of Franson the mark will go to C

  • Burtonboy

    While I’ve been happy with the Nonis’s work so far there is one fly in the ointment that has bugged me since it happened and that’s the Bernier contract . I was shocked when I saw the 2.9 mil cap hit. 1.9 would have been more appropriate until this guy proves himself . Its not like we had a shit goalie and were desperate. That extra 1 mil would go a long way solving the problems we face at the moment. It will be interesting to see what the plan is going forward

    • MaxwellHowe

      Burtonboy I think Nonis was up against the wall with Bernier, though he should have seen it coming.  The fear was an offer sheet, which is the reason LA dealt Bernier when they did.  If nonis didn’t offer $2.9 million, Bernier would most certainly have gotten an offer sheet for at least 3 million, and if the Leafs didn’t match the compensation, I think, would have been a 2nd round pick – this after already giving away a 2nd round pick and Scrivens and Frattin for Bernier to begin with.
      So the Bernier situation was unique

      • Burtonboy

        MaxwellHowe Burtonboy Maybe.  Bernier would have had to sign the offer sheet. Not sure I would even want a player who holds a gun to your head right off the bat like that.

      • Burtonboy

        -Keon- He’s a little behind in his body of work as well

      • dlb eh

        MaxwellHowe Burtonboy 
        if Reimer plays as well as he did last year, which typically means he’s healthy…and if Bernier beats him out of the starter’s role.
        then Bernier’s contract is a bargain and Nonis is a genious.

        • Burtonboy

          dlb eh MaxwellHowe Burtonboy Yep can’t complain too much if he’s significantly better then Reimer . We will see soon enough. Until then I reserve the right to dislike the contract lol

      • Jantz

        Not sure about the offer sheet situation however, I think he was just supporting JB. Nonis clearly feels he has upgraded the position and with all due respect to JR, he certainly expects JB to be the starter. He probably didn’t want to nickle and dime a guy that was clearly unhappy backing up Quick and who may be our long term answer between the pipes for the next 8-10 years.Overpaid based on his limited body of work and high draft status but hopefully he repays Nonis with a breakout season.

      • MaxwellHowe

        -Keon- With good young goaltending in huge demand, with a price tag so relatively cheap, with so little compensation involved, with a chance to absoiutely screw over the Leafs, he would have been offer sheeted IMO

      • Greg Fenton

        MaxwellHowe -Keon- I don’t thikn Bernier’s contract is bad or anything, but I agree with Keon, offer sheets are one of those things fans talk about but GM’s rarely ever use. 
        And even if someone did use one on Bernier, the Leafs saved 100,000 by signing him before he got one…..woohoo.

      • MaxwellHowe

        Greg Fenton That last argument is befuddling. You are not paying attention to my point. I am offering an opinion as to why he got $2.9 million. I am saying that much less than that and Bernier might well have just waitied for an offer sheet. And there was a good chance he would get one which is why LA unloaded him when they did. If the Leafs had offered much less or waited they might have been forced to sign him to a contract as dictated by another team. In terms of price AND term. So this is why he got $2.9 million. Nonis may not have been clever to put himself in that position, but all I’m saying is that is why Bernier got the money he got.

      • Greg Fenton

        MaxwellHowe Greg Fenton And our point is, it would probably never come since GM’s rarely use them.
        And if your’e expecting him to a 3 million dollar offer sheet, why the rush to save 100,000? Why not take more time, get him for 2 million or 1.5 or whatever, and if he got an offersheet, all it cost them was $100,000…which is nothing. LA unloaded him because he wanted a chance to be a starter and he wasn’t going to get that with Quick on the Kings, and if Reimer establishes himself as the clear cut #1, we’ll probably see Bernier moved again for the same reason. 
        I don’t think its a bad contract, I just think your reasoning for it is off.

      • MaxwellHowe

        Greg Fenton MaxwellHowe With all respect, there is a reason Bernier was traded by the Kings so early in the offseason, and a reason why he was the only significant RFA the Leafs signed before free agent day.  Offer sheet.  Bernier was a great offer sheet bargain.  Everyone knew this.  And, again, taking the chance of an offer sheet coming would have forced the Leafs to agree to someone else’s money and term.  And you’re forgetting that Bernier has no loyalty to the Leafs.  He could have held out as long as he wanted waiting for a good offer sheet.  Not like the Leafs were going to have him sitting after giving up two roster players and a pick to get him.

      • Greg Fenton

        MaxwellHowe Greg Fenton Or the Kings liked the deal for him, and Noni’s liked the contract, so why wait around? 
        As I said, offer sheets are more of a fan concern because GM’s rarely use them. Pieterangleo is one of the best young D-men int he world right now……how many offer-sheets are the blues dealing with? If teams were just waiting to send an offer sheet to Bernier, why wait so long on Kadri? Wouldn’t hte same logic apply?

      • MaxwellHowe

        Greg Fenton MaxwellHowe No one has Pieterangleo money or they don’t want to give up the draft picks involved and they realize the Blues would match.  Heres the thing with Bernier.  Several teams were trying to trade for Bernier – Flyers, Devils, NYI.  I’m sure the Oilers or Flames would love to have gotten him, but the Kings were not dealing in their conference.  So are you suggesting that after failing to get him in a trade for assets, those teams would pass on the opportuniy to sign him for nothing but a 2nd round pick?  C’mon Greg, give me a break.  Nonis paid slightly under the likely offer sheet amount and avoided a long term contract that some jerk like Holmgren or Feaster would offer.  These guys have offer sheeted before.  They’ll do it again.

      • Greg Fenton

        MaxwellHowe Greg Fenton Someone like Nonis, if he didn’t have an issue with an offer sheet, should/would be worried about getting a franchise D-man and fitting him in afterwards. 
        Yes, they probably would because GM’s seem to view offer sheets as dirty pool. “If we do that, the Kings will pouch our players” etc…. 
        As said, if it was a conern why no offer sheet to Kadri? The Flames could use a 22 year old center, why not offer him 3.3 million?

      • MaxwellHowe

        Greg Fenton MaxwellHowe But that argument can be thrown right back at you.  Why sign Bernier so soon, and just before free agent day?  Why not let him sit like Kadri and wait?  Because Nonis knew an offer sheet was a real possibility.  Christ, the Kings before him knew that.

      • Greg Fenton

        MaxwellHowe Greg Fenton They had a deal with Bernier they liked. They don’t with Kadri. The Kadri situation just shows the offersheet thing isn’t really an concern. If it was, he would have been signed a while ago.

      • MaxwellHowe

        Greg Fenton MaxwellHowe And that wonderful deal just happened to have been reached late on the evening of July 5, just before free agency opened up on July 6.  Right on

      • Greg Fenton

        MaxwellHowe Greg Fenton Again, if they are that worried about offer sheets, why didn’t they sign Kadri as well? Or do you think he isnt’ good enough for other teams to want him? Not worth a 2nd round pick, hell maybe even a 1st?

      • MaxwellHowe

        Greg Fenton MaxwellHowe No, I don’t think a young centre of Kadri’s abilities is as valued as a young goalie of Bernier’s reputation, particularly by teams like the Flyers and Flames that have a history of putting out offer sheets.  I agree, offer sheets are rare –  but Bernier was a rare opportunity for goalie starved teams to snatch a young goalie with a great rep.

      • Greg Fenton

        MaxwellHowe Greg Fenton Really? No teams out there could use a young center of Kadri abilities? The Flames wouldn’t like to add that? I guess beause they are so loaded at center and lots of 2nd round picks end up being as good as Kadri right?

      • Greg Fenton

        MaxwellHowe Greg Fenton Same with Pieterangelo. Sure it might cost multi. 1st roundres to get him (if the Blues won’t match), but so what? What are the odds the Leafs (for example) would draft a player that good anytime in the net 3-4 seasons?

      • MaxwellHowe

        Greg Fenton MaxwellHowe Not as hard to find as a good young goalie.  Again, proof in pudding.  Bernier signed just before free agent frenzy.  Not an accident Greg.

      • Greg Fenton

        MaxwellHowe Greg Fenton There is zero evidence of a causational relationship.

      • MaxwellHowe

        Greg Fenton MaxwellHowe Sure there is.  Bernier was sought by other teams in a trade.  Specualtion was out there he might get an offer sheet. Kings unload him before that happens.  Leafs sign him just before free agent frenzy, but don’t sign Gunnar, Kadri, Franson.  he was treated differently though ntiehr the team nor the player had a reason to be particuarly loyal to one another. Bernier got more than twice as much as his previous contract though he had done little in the last year to warrant much of a raise. Thats circumstantial evidence, and damn convincing

      • Greg Fenton

        MaxwellHowe Greg Fenton Thats a correlation, which does not imply causation. And the Leafs not signing their other very valuable RFA’s and leaving them exposed would indicate they are not that worried about offer sheets.

      • MaxwellHowe

        Greg Fenton MaxwellHowe Yes, the correlation does imply causation.  And yes, the fact Gunnar et al were left unsigned beyond July 6 indcates they had no concerns for offer sheets.  For everyone but Bernier.

    • Dink

      Burtonboy 2 quality goalies for a total of 4.7 million looks pretty good to me

      • Burtonboy

        @Dink Burtonboy Not if its at the cost of a Kuliman or Franson. Wrong yr to be doing that deal.

        • Dink

          Burtonboy Lot of goalies out there making that much all by themselves, we can always trade one in Toronto

        • Mind Bomb

          Burtonboy 100 Percent BB

    • rustynail

      Burtonboy 3.4 if you include retained salary to get him.

      • Burtonboy

        rustynail Burtonboy Yep forgot about that

  • Zep2

    -Keon- I mentioned soon after the trade one would be gone by training camp next year at the latest, probably Riemer.  Price-Halak, Lou-Schneider situations are only manageable for so long

  • Zep2

    Thanks for the write up Anthony

  • Burtonboy

    https://twitter.com/koshtorontosun
    Dominic Toninato survives cuts at U.S. junior camp https://twitter.com/search?q=%23Leafs&src=hashhttps://twitter.com/search?q=%23Leafs&src=hash

    • Mind Bomb

      Burtonboy  Nice, deserves a Nick Name, 
      Sharkinato

      • Dink

        Mind Bomb Burtonboy Tonitoon?
        you had to be there

        • Mind Bomb

          @Dink Mind Bomb Burtonboy Haha, Not very intimidating a Nic Name

        • http://twitter.com/jmckelvie RielledUp

          Mind Bomb Burtonboy Quinton Toninato

        • Mind Bomb

          RielledUp Mind Bomb Burtonboy  Done !

      • Mind Bomb

        CanuckUKinToronto Mind Bomb Burtonboy Thats what I call my 8 year old daughter
        The Tiny Tornado :)

      • Mind Bomb

        CanuckUKinToronto Mind Bomb Burtonboy Lol if he can score like my daughter can Chat, he will break records :)

    • Dink

      Burtonboy He is a curiosity to me

      • Dink

        Burtonboy needs to gain 50 lbs ffs

        • http://i.imgur.com/MyKj5C3.gif ingy56

          @Dink Burtonboy He’s still a kid.

  • Dink

    Yaknowwhat could have signed Kommiserek and Connelly (grins sarcastically)

  • Dink

    Zep2 -Keon- If Bozak had walked and Grabovski was still on the team wouldn’t he be the logical one to be moved for cap space along with Liles?
    Then you would be out two centers
    Nonis is doing well in my mind

  • Jantz

    Great post.
    Your right the team is better and with continued growth and development from so many of our younger players, we will be a force in the East.
    No # 2 D added and being a little tight against the cap means it’s not a perfect off season. Did any other team address all their shortcomings ? Certainly not the Bruins who will take a sizeable step back with all of their losses and Chara’s fall from immortality.

  • dlb eh

    amazingly, the link to Simmons effort was a pleasant surprise this morning.  it’s a rare bird that i click on that link for him but today felt different…and it was.  see what a little work gets you Steve?  it gets you something worth reading.
    Jordan will like your summary, or reasoning for the contracts.  he’s always countering people’s overestimating on our RFA contracts.
    and anyone who doesn’t like Jim Ralph is just jealous of the guy.  they wish they could be that funny, that well-liked, and doing anything hockey related like he is.

  • http://i.imgur.com/MyKj5C3.gif ingy56

    https://twitter.com/SNHockeyCentralhttps://twitter.com/SNHockeyCentral/status/364735587602792449
    Former Detroit Red Wing Burr dies at 47 due to brain trauma http://t.co/p3l9xJ4hkV

  • Greg Fenton

    Yaknowwhat It can absolutly be argued that Nonis didn’t improve the team. 
    Bernier is a good young goalie with potential, but they already had Reimer and there is no guarentee that Bernier will even be an NHL starter. I think most would argue that Bolland over Grabovski is a defensive upgrade but an offensive downgrade. Clarkson’s year end numbers were good but he wasn’t very productive most of the season. As for Jantz’s “continued growth and development” argument, that is way over blown by a lot of Leaf fans. The majority of this team is in its prime and “are what they are”, and the young, developing players they had have aren’t exactly Tavares, only so much that can/should be expected of them. 
    I think the team is better now then it was at the end of last season, but I don’t think its drasticlly so, I can understand why people don’t like the changes or feel they have made the team significantly better, and I don’t think this is a team/group (as currently put together) with untapped, unlimited potential.

    • Greg Fenton

      -Keon- Greg Fenton Yaknowwhat Thats part of the argument though, Grabovski shouldn’t have been in that position. 
      As I said, I think the team is better, just not as much as some people think. I like the Bolland/Grabovski swap, but I can understand some peoples objection to it.

    • Greg Fenton

      -Keon- Greg Fenton Yaknowwhat The people I’ve seen making that argument – he should have been on the top line or the scoring line instead of of Bozak.

    • Greg Fenton

      -Keon- Greg Fenton Yaknowwhat I always go with the logic/way of thinking of, skilled players will figure out how to work/play together. 
      Sure on paper playmaker/scorer is ideal, but if you have two players who are talented, they’ll figure out how to make it work.

    • NotInsane

      Greg Fenton -Keon- Yaknowwhat 
      Ridiculous to think Grabo & Kessel can play together.  It was tried and failed.  Your comment about skilled players learning to play with each other defies experience.

    • Greg Fenton

      NotInsane Greg Fenton -Keon- Yaknowwhat Really? experience is that ONLY players who appear to complemenet each other well play well together……

    • Komas Taberle

      Greg Fenton NotInsane -Keon- Yaknowwhat Grabo lost his job to Kadri, Kadri is a much better player than Grabo, Bolland is an upgrade on McClement. McClement is a perfect #4 centre? penalty killer.  Bernier is much better than Reimer , addthe signing of Ranger and Leafs are a much better team than last year.

    • Greg Fenton

      Komas Taberle Greg Fenton NotInsane -Keon- Yaknowwhat I think they are better, I was happy Grabovski was bought out (I was saying since the day the season ended he should be bought out when most people thought/assumed it would be Komisarek and Liles). I’m just pointing out thats what some people think I don’t think its a………crazy position to take, even though I don’t agree. 
      I think the team will be better, but not “much” better, It hink most of Nonis’s improvements have been of the minor varity, and none in the area’sthat needed upgrading the most.

    • NotInsane

      Greg Fenton
      Again you use a sweeping generalization not specific to this argument.  Grabo had his chance with Kessel.  Doesn’t have to be 82 game full schedule to “experience” failure and move on, Greg.

    • Greg Fenton

      NotInsane Greg Fenton I really dont’ care, I was glad Grabovski was brought out, I was one of the few saying he should have been ebfore he was. IF you want to continue arguing this find someone who believes more strongly in it.

    • NotInsane

      Greg Fenton NotInsane 
      You admit what you wrote was incorrect. Good.

  • dlb eh

    Stuart Percy sounds like hes got Adrian Aucoin potential

  • Mind Bomb

    -Keon- Yaknowwhat  True Keon, but when you need something done, you Call Batman, Not Robin, You call the Lone Ranger, Not Tonto, you Call Bart not Homer !

    • Leafs rule

      -Keon- Mind Bomb Yaknowwhat and as much as I like most of Burkies moves I believe u R right Keon ,he assisted Burke as most know and served his apprentice time welli mo .Watching him last night on Leafs TV watch playof hockey I was impressed with his intensity and his ability to remain calm

  • Jantz

    Realy liked your fist paragraph.Connolly was the 2nd best C behind Richards when we signed him. We needed help at C and he was a risk that didn’t work out. Not sure if the blame should have gone to our pro scouts for not being able to recognize that Connolly was done ( I have heard Paul Hamilton on WGR550 say a number of times that they knew Connolly was done physically long before leaving Buffalo ) or to Burke for having the final say and the ultimate responsibility for a brutal signing. In reality the move never hurted us last season as Nonis was smart enough to send him down to free up a spot for Naz and others to get some playing time.
    Sure glad that we lost out on Richards…. hindsight is beautiful.

  • Doorman

    I hope your right Anthony!!!  I want Liles, Franson and Kadri!!!  Make it fit Boys!!!

    • Mind Bomb

      Doorman Quotes from a Bongo bade !

  • Burtonboy

    The Leafscan still squeeze this all in but it means getting Kadri for 3 mil or less and Franson for the same as they signed Gunnar for . It also means running a 21 man roster . Not ideal but would not surprise me if they did exactly that.

     CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTERMy Custom Lineup
    FORWARDS
    Joffrey Lupul ($5.250m) / Tyler Bozak ($4.200m) / Phil Kessel ($5.400m) 
    James Van Riemsdyk ($4.250m) / Nazem Kadri ($3.000m) / David Clarkson ($5.250m) 
    Jay McClement ($1.500m) / Dave Bolland ($3.375m) / Nikolai Kulemin ($2.800m) 
    Frazer McLaren ($0.700m) / Joe Colborne ($0.600m) / Colton Orr ($0.925m) 
    DEFENSEMEN
    Carl Gunnarsson ($3.150m) / Dion Phaneuf ($6.500m) 
    Jake Gardiner ($1.117m) / John-Michael Liles ($3.875m) 
    Mark Fraser ($1.275m) / Cody Franson ($3.100m) 
    Paul Ranger ($1.000m) / 
    GOALTENDERS
    Jonathan Bernier ($2.900m) 
    James Reimer ($1.800m) 
    OTHER
    Buyout: Darcy Tucker ($1.000m) 
    Buyout: Colby Armstrong ($1.000m) 
    RETAINED SALARY TRANSACTIONS (0.778% of upper limit)
    Matt Frattin ($0.437m—0.5%) Ben Scrivens ($0.062m—0.1%) 
    ——
    CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
    (these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
    SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $64,466,667; BONUSES: $300,000
    CAP SPACE (21-man roster): $133,333

    • Doorman

      Burtonboy Sold!!!  Make it so Nonis!!!

    • Irishfanman

      Burtonboy The more I look at that forward lineup the more I say don’t mess with it…other than maybe Bozak…who may well evolve further…everyone is in the proper slot and the chemistry is perfect. Plus with our abundance of D men up and coming and with Ranger as one who I am sure will quickly get up to speed, if we make a move its gotta be Franson Liles or maybe Gunner if Granberg is that close. I want to see that third line have a chance to show their stuff, and with Reilly probably soon on the horizon and Gardiner already here Franson may well be the best trade bait for a juicy pick or prospect.

      • Burtonboy

        Irishfanman Burtonboy I’d like to have made room to carry a 13 forward ,say an Ashton or a D’Amigo just to give use some flexibility for the 4th line but unless Nonis can move Liles its not likely to happen . As it is I really like this team though

        • Irishfanman

          Burtonboy Irishfanman Yes much as I love them both, going with both McLaren and Orr every game may be an issue. More speed will be required for certain teams.

        • Burtonboy

          Irishfanman Burtonboy You can always double shift some of the top guys if need be. Carlyle did that with the Ducks

        • Greg Fenton

          Irishfanman Burtonboy For 3 shifts a period, 5 minutes a game……it won’t be an issue. But the “solutation” some people have isn’t perfect either. Sure D’Amigo or Ashton would bring more speed, but are also a lot less experienced and would make more mistakes then Orr and McLaren which could hurt them as much, or more then Orr and/or McLaren’s speed. 
          Ultimately, given their very limited ice-time, I doubt either situation will be much of a problem.

    • djamon

      Burtonboy That 4th line is an abomination. I would be amazed…stunned…if both those guys are dressed at the same time for more than 25 games.

  • Claymish

    Anyone who things the Leaf haven’t upgraded are fools. MacArthur – Clarkson (lost some speed, gained net presence, goal scoring, toughness.) Frattin – Colborne (Management and fans want to see what Colborne can do, having Frattin keeps Colborne from getting his chance.) Scrivens- Bernier (Every scout, outside of Toronto feel Bernier is a star in waiting. Knowing that 37 games is the most Reimer has played, what would happen if Scrivens had to play 45 games? Sparing someone’s feelings isn’t worth the risk.) Grabovski- Bolland (Without getting into a heated debate, Grabo wasn’t in the Leafs plans as a 1, or 2, so Bolland is a significant upgrade for the role required) Komarov – ? (Not replaced, however losing his style of play for 14 mins a game and adding Clarkson’s physicality during more important minutes is an upgrade.) Overall, another year under Carlyle’s system for one of the youngest teams in the league will result in improvements in all areas for sure.

    • Irishfanman

      Claymish Other Agreed…than maybe Frattin after a year I don’t think we will miss any of those guys…and Bolland and Clarkson, two hometown boys with toughness grit and skill…gotta like it!

    • Greg Fenton

      Claymish While agree with, mostly, what you said about the players (we don’t know if Colborne is better then Frattin yet, Bernier might be a bust, so can’t call those upgrades yet. I also doubt Colborne factored into Frattin being moved at all).
      Its the “Carlyles system and youngest team = improvement” that I have an issue with. First, this team isn’t that young. Remember their oldest player is 32 and have 4 players who are 30 or older (Lupul, Orr, Liles and McClement). That has just as much to do with the average age as young players. If you look at the players the Leafs have, the vast majority are prime aged players (mid 20’s – early 30’s). They are what they are. This isn’t a group full of untapped 19 year olds. Also, how complicated do you think Carlyles way of playing hockey is? In one year with the DUcks they got to the Conference finals, after his second they won the cup. More time with the coach and his system doesn’t = better and better hockey.

      • Greg Fenton

        Murph2417 Greg Fenton Claymish He might be, he might not be. He might become a problem if he isn’t starting. And if REimer becomes the #1 guy in Toronto, they may have ended up giving up assets for basically no reason. 
        I’m not saying it was a bd deal or a bad risk to take, but its hardly a given that it will work out great in the end either.

      • leafscapguru

        Greg Fenton Murph2417 Claymish this was a low risk high reward trade if it works everyone will parade around nonis for finding another cujo or potvin. sometimes when something with this high of a reward can be had you have to go for it.

      • Greg Fenton

        Murph2417 Greg Fenton Claymish which is why I said it wasn’t a bad risk to take. Just pointing its wrong to assume it WILL work out at this point.

      • leafscapguru

        Greg Fenton Murph2417 Claymish don’t think anybody disagrees with that. Its just dont bash the idea before you see it happen. it might very well work out stop beig so negative.

      • djamon

        Greg Fenton Bernier is a better goalie than Scrivens…that’s not up for debate. There’s no way to “doom and gloom” that comparison.

      • Greg Fenton

        leafscapguru Greg Fenton Murph2417 Claymish Which is basically what I’m saying, only from the other end. Don’t assume great improvement, and call those who don’t think there has been great improvement fools, before we see it pan out.

      • Greg Fenton

        djamon Greg Fenton Bernier has much great potential then Scrivens, as of right now, today, he may be alittle better (better stas last year, fewer games and fewer shots against). 
        If Bernier fails to develop or beat out Reimer for the #1 job and is basically what Scrivens was, a back-up goalie, thats not great favor for Frattin and the draft picks. 
        Its a risk, a risk worth taking, a risk I haven’t and won’t critise for, its a risk and far from a given that Bernier WILL be great and upgrade the Leafs.

      • leafscapguru

        Greg Fenton leafscapguru Murph2417 Claymish i like the direction of the team, there will always areas where we can improve but as it stands it will be a better season for the leafs as they will have more structure this year compared to last.

      • leafscapguru

        Greg Fenton djamon only time will tell

      • djamon

        Greg Fenton No one’s assuming Bernier’s going to beat out Reimer for the #1 job. But we know Scrivens wasn’t going to…ever. Bernier’s body of work is twice the size of Scrivens’ and clearly better. The straight up comparison of Bernier and Scrivens is not close.
        I agree the Frattin/Colborne one is guesswork at this point. But since both their roles are so minor at this point any dropoff is virtually negligible.

      • Greg Fenton

        leafscapguru Greg Fenton Murph2417 Claymish More structure based on what? Carlyle isn’t going to have them playing any differently. His system isn’t so complicated that it takes 3 seasons to learn. 
        Time doesn’t = better. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn’t. I think for this team to see real improvement, they’ll need to upgrade the talent level and address those area’s that really need addressing.

      • Greg Fenton

        djamon Greg Fenton As I said, good risk to take. But it may end up being a mistake, and ultimately they made have been better holding onto Frattin, the draft pick and Scrivens.

      • djamon

        Greg Fenton I think the point that the original poster made about the team youth is valid. Improvement can come with a young team simply by gaining experience…whether you’ve changed anything tangible about the team or not. It’s reasonable to expect our core to improve this year over last.

      • leafscapguru

        Greg Fenton leafscapguru Murph2417 Claymish structure meaning we signed guy’s to play certain roles for the team clarkson adds grit to Kadri’s line and can create space (better than Mac) Bolland has played a shut down role for how many years with a stanley cup champion team (beter than Grabo for that role) Bernier was brought in if Riemer gets injured and the team doesnt feel that they will miss the playoffs (better than scrivens) 

        thats more structure

      • Greg Fenton

        djamon Greg Fenton Except the team isn’t that young. Its a prime aged team. The vast majority of players on the roster are beyond that stage of development. They are what they are. Kessel, Phaneuf, Lupul, van Riemsdyk, Franson – these guys are 20 year old players yet to reach their potential.

      • Greg Fenton

        leafscapguru Greg Fenton Murph2417 Claymish They do appear to have players better suited for a lot of the roles.

      • djamon

        Greg Fenton Our team IS young…relative to every other NHL team. You look at the roster and somehow decide that it isn’t…because you see a bunch of players is their mid-20’s? You think JVR, or Franson, or Kadri, or even Kessel are done developing? That’s insane.
        Instead you decide that because we have players over 30 (nevermind you cited 4 guys, only one of whom would be seen as a core player) we’re not that young. Take a look around the league, tell me what you see there.
        Every time you make a trade you take a chance…nothing is guaranteed here. If you do nothing you take a chance too. You’re saying nothing at all really.

      • Greg Fenton

        djamon Greg Fenton You need to undrestand how Average works. The Leafs average age is low because their lack old players, not beause they players they have are young. 
        Kadri isn’t, but Kessel, van Riemsdyk, Franson – those guys are what they are. They aren’t players who are going to take their game to another level and become more then what theya re right now. They may not have had their career years yet, but they are what they are. Its insane to think otherwise. 
        Lack of older players doesn’t mean a team is young.

      • The_Polish_Cannon

        Greg Fenton djamon I haven’t been commenting on this site for a while now but you are still just as ridiculous. The lack of veteran leadership is exactly what makes this team young. They have been amongst the 4 youngest teams in the league for a couple seasons. They are growing and going through the ups and downs together without the veteran leadership. Kessel has been consistently evolving his game from a sniper to a more all round player who’s playmaking ability is on par with his goal scoring ability. Has also been improving his defensive game where last year we witnessed him breaking up alot of plays with his back checking. JVR was groomed this year, for the first time, to be more of a power forward who goes to the net hard and he excelled in that role. Franson had his first breakout year and you think he’s peeked? There’s nothing that shows these players won’t continue to improve seeing as every year to date they’ve all continued to improve every season.

      • djamon

        Greg Fenton I know how average works for fuck’s sake. 
        JVR is 23, he has 244 NHL games to his credit. But yeah, he is what is he is, right?. Franson is 25 with 243 games, but he’s already hit his peak I guess? Kadri, Gardiner too? Look at the core players on this team, they’re basically all either very young, or just entering their prime. The only exception is a 28 year old Dion. And he’s got lots left too…judging by how good he was last year.
        Your lack of even a basic understanding of how an athlete’s career arcs is obvious. You think once they hit their “peak” they fall off immediately. You think a player’s peak is written in stone and all are at the same age. You think a player’s peak is one year? You’re making very blanket assumptions based on the most superficial argument you could possibly come up with (their age?) and that’s it.
        BTW…a lack of older players DOES make a team young.

      • Greg Fenton

        djamon Greg Fenton Peak and “are what they are” are two different things.
        Franson is what he is. A top 3 D-man. He isn’t going to become a build your team around him D-man. He might, and probably will get better within his roll, but to expect him to develop into more then what the is…….he is past that, its unlikely to happen. 
        Where did I ever say will fall of immediately? Please, point me to that comment, cause I made it I will say I was wrong and misspoke instantly. 
        What obvious is your lack of undrestanding of how an athlete’s career progresses. Its not a straight line up until a magically age where they start to decline.

      • leafscapguru

        Greg Fenton djamon didnt kessel learn a 2 way game last season your reasoning is flawed

      • Greg Fenton

        leafscapguru Greg Fenton djamon Wow, just wow.
        First, Kessel, at times, played better in his own zone. Thats hardly “learning” a two-way game. 
        Second, Kessel is still what he was last year and the year before that, even with the improved defensive effort. A great, completmentry player, not the guy you can build around. Any bit of improvement doesn’t make a player “more then what they are”. To be “more then what they are”  (at least in how I’m using it), a player has to go up a level. From a 2nd line forward to a 1st line. From a 1st line to a franchise player. If D’Amigo gets a spot on the 4th line and the next year moves up to the 3rd line and earns a lot of PK time, that would be the kind of improvement I’m talking about. He upgraded the position he can play.

      • leafscapguru

        Greg Fenton leafscapguru djamon greg im sure even if the leafs won the cup you would say something bad about the team so im not going to bother with responding to you anymore. last words for me

        GO LEAFS GO!!!!!!!

      • The_Polish_Cannon

        Greg Fenton djamon you just have to watch scrivens and bernier play to know who the better goalie is, all stats aside. Sure the leafs played well when scrivens filled in for Reimer’s injury but I nearly had a heart attack each game watching Scrivens falling and flip floping all over the place.

      • The_Polish_Cannon

        Greg Fenton leafscapguru djamon Kessel is the puck carrier, the sniper, the playmaker for his line and has done nothing but put up great numbers and make all his linemates better and have career years. I dont know what else constitutes a franchise player.

      • Greg Fenton

        leafscapguru Greg Fenton djamon Not at all. I’m very unhappy with were the Leafs are right now. Nothing would make me happier then to be wrong, but thats just how I see things right now. 
        If Kessel puts together an entire season were he plays like a franchise winger, instead of being on and off, I’ll be the first one to say he did it, I didn’t think he had it in, and the Leafs have that palyer. But he has tod o it first.

      • djamon

        Greg Fenton I’m sorry dude…but if you want to play semantics and somehow convince me that “are what they are” is somehow better than “peak” I’m all ears. The implication by “are what they are” that they will not improve. If that’s not what you meant then I suggest you learn to express yourself better. If it IS what you meant then you’re simply wrong.
        You last paragraph is what you seem unable to comprehend. You’re willing to make sweeping judgments about our players career paths without even the most basic knowledge of what they’re capable of. Or how an athlete’s career plays out. It’s all about age, right? Not experience…or teammates…or coaching…or anything else?
        You’re either trolling (likely) or you’re the most pessimistic hockey fan I’ve ever come across.

    • TOHockeyNut

      Claymish My concern with the changes so far is a loss in depth up front. If we can stay healthy we will be OK, but if not we might struggle badly if we don’t get any really good surprises in call ups from the Marlies.

    • DWCMLHS

      Whether the Leafs’ have upgraded or not depends a lot on how Carlyle is going to use the roster. Grabovski is a much better player than Bolland in general, but Bolland used specifically in a 3C role (his proper use) should be more effective than Grabovski used in a 3C role (not his proper use).
      Losing Frattin and Komarov hurts the team’s depth up front. And we don’t just lose speed by swapping Mac and Clarkson, we lose a lot of playmaking ability. You’re right about Clarkson adding net presence and toughness, though. Bernier is a back-up goalie with the potential to be a starter eventually, so he’s a better long-term asset than Scrivens, who is likely a career back-up, IMO. Is he going to be better right away, though? Who knows. As far as defence is concerned, we’ll have to wait and see how Nonis handles the current cap situation. If he has to trade Franson, we are in trouble.
      Overall, the team can be better this season. Like I said, it depends on how Carlyle uses his players. We can’t ignore the fact that it can easily be worse too, though. All it would take is for our goaltending to not be as rock solid as it was last season, or our forwards to not have such high shooting percentages. The Leafs weren’t just out-shot at ES last season, they were out-chanced as well.
      I haven’t liked the Leafs’ off-season, but it isn’t because I think they’re worse than last year’s team, it’s because they could have been much better off, had Nonis made some different decisions. We were swimming in cap space, but didn’t use it in an efficient manner. Now we’re in cap trouble. Has the team improved? Maybe, but it could have improved much more, and we could be in a way better long-term financial situation.

      • djamon

        DWCMLHS Bernier is already miles better than Scrivens…regardless of whether he ever beats out Reimer. Scrivens is barely NHL calibre.

        • Greg Fenton

          djamon DWCMLHS Really? 26th in S% (when you remove the goalies who barely played) is “barely NHL calibre”?
          Wow, you turned on him quick.

        • DWCMLHS

          Based on what? Bernier is more proven (62 GP as opposed to 32), but a career .912 save percentage is hardly “miles better” than .910 on a worse team.

        • djamon

          Greg Fenton I can’t turn on a guy I never supported in the first place. Scrivens’ absolute ceiling is NHL backup. I’ll lay money with anyone in here that he’s out of the league in 3 years.

        • Greg Fenton

          djamon Greg Fenton Bernier absolutly has higher potential. But he may end up just being a back-up. And Scrivens is not “barely” NHL calibre. 
          The downside in the trade is the Leafs gave up their back-up AND a player AND  pick, for a back-up.

        • djamon

          DWCMLHS Based on more than their Save %. You call him a backup…like he has that in common with Scrivens. That’s a joke. He’s been an NHL backup to one of the top 3 goalies in the league, whereas Scrivens has been a backup to Reimer…when he wasn’t bouncing around the minor leagues.

        • Greg Fenton

          djamon DWCMLHS Reimer has been one of the best goalies in the league, his first year, at the start of his second, and last year. 
          As I said, Bernier has higher potential, but the downside is a back-up. If the Leafs gave up all that for another back-up…….then the deal doesn’t look so hot. Its a risk worth taking, but, thats the down side.

        • wiski

          Greg Fenton djamon You guy’s should both know Scrivens will be the next star goalie of the league now that he’s out of T.O 😉

        • djamon

          Greg Fenton But Scrivens is 26…he is what he is, right?

        • Greg Fenton

          djamon Greg Fenton Do you just have a hard time understanding what I mean when I say Bernier has higher potential or do you always stop reading before that part?
          Because you keep going on and on like I’m calling Bernier trash ans Scrivens amazing.

        • djamon

          Greg Fenton I understand you fine…I disagree with you. I’ll say it again…Bernier is already better than Scrivens. He’s done more in the NHL and…here’s something you’ll like…he’s 2 years younger than Scrivens!
          You keep contradicting yourself…that’s what makes it hard to keep up with you.

        • Greg Fenton

          djamon Greg Fenton You don’t believe Bernier has higher potential then Scrivens?

      • wiski

        -Keon- We lost Koska and Leo

      • Greg Fenton

        -Keon- They won’t be easily worse. FOr them to be worse some players woul dhave to completely shit the bed. 
        They may not be greatly improved, but something would have to go wrongfor them to be worse.

      • DWCMLHS

        All it would take is for Reimer’s save percentage to drop significantly. It’s likely to drop at least a little bit. If it falls too far, we are in trouble.
        I know this is going to come up, so why is Reimer’s save percentage likely to fall? Well, a .924 season is always an unlikely scenario. Even great goalies like Lundvist and Rinne have career save percentages of only .920. Quick, Price, Anderson, Miller and Reimer himself sit at .915. No goalie can maintain a .924 save percentage long-term.

      • Greg Fenton

        DWCMLHS But you can say that about any team. How many teams an realisticlly be just as good with worse goaltending?

      • DWCMLHS

        Right. But how many teams’ starters had save percentages that are unsustainably high? Look at a team like LA. Their starter posted a .902 save percentage last season, but has a career save percentage of .915. He’s likely to have a better save percentage this upcoming season than this past season.

  • Greg Fenton

    -Keon- I’d give Nonis a C, and so far the experience with Nonis is similar to Burke, but with less downside. 
    Like Burke, all of Nonis’s moves have been good. Bolland and Clarkson should be upgrades over MacArthur and Grabovski. Bernier is a high potential young goalie. I don’t think any of his contracts have been bad or anything. However he also hasn’t addressed the bigger needs the team has (where as Burke didn’t take the time to build properly). He didn’t address the #1 center issue. He didn’t address their need for a #1 D-man. He did bring in a goalie, but that goalie is unknown right now, halfway through the year that may look like a huge mistake. He didn’t bring in any franchise talent at any potential. Their first rounder looks like a future 3rd or 4th liner, of which their development system is littered. 
    Nothing he did was bad, but pretty much all their needs at the start of the off-season are still there, or least the most important ones.  
    And just on Gardiner and Rielly replacing Franson……maybe, hopefully. I don’t think Nonis and/or Carlyle are too eager to count on those guys before they really know what they have.

  • http://mapleleafshotstove.com/ DeclanK

    Not sure who said it; with regards to Leiweke wanted a grade A player on the Leafs, he thinks the opposite of that. 
    http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xzphs7_friedman-1-on-1-with-mlse-boss-tim-leiweke_news
    MLS – ya, a star player helps… same with Bball. Not hockey so much.

    • Greg Fenton

      DeclanK I don’t have sound on my work computer, but assuming he saying just you said he does, I would guess that, given the Leafs are not going to rebuilt right now the way the Raptors and TFC are, he doesn’t want to give Nonis an impossible mission. If the Leafs were also int he middle of/at the start of a rebuild I bet he’e be saying something different. 
      From what I understand he was the one in LA pushing hard for Kovalchuk because he wanted that grade A player. 
      Also, interesting what that means about the players currently on the team …..

      • dlb eh

        Greg Fenton DeclanK 
        means we have grade A talent

        • Greg Fenton

          dlb eh Greg Fenton DeclanK If he thinks hockey doesn’t need grade A talent, would imply the Leafs don’t have it but don’t need it.

        • dlb eh

          Greg Fenton dlb eh DeclanK 
          i didn’t hear him say that.  he thinks the Leafs do have grade A talent.  you might not, but you shouldn’t put your words into his mouth after telling us you have no sound to hear what he said…bizarre

        • Greg Fenton

          dlb eh Greg Fenton DeclanK I didn’t hear him say that……
          I looked up and listened on my ipad, once I remembered it can connect to the internet.

        • dlb eh

          Greg Fenton dlb eh DeclanK
          he says it’s about the (sweater). unlike the NBA where a superstar can carry a team, the NHL is more about the entire team.

        • dlb eh

          Greg Fenton dlb eh DeclanK
          he doesn’t think the Kings had a superstar when they won the Cup. when they had their superstar, Gretzky, it didn’t equate to a Cup.

        • Greg Fenton

          dlb eh Greg Fenton DeclanK he also talked about how great Doughty was and how he changed the team……

        • dlb eh

          Greg Fenton dlb eh DeclanK 
          yet he didn’t call him a superstar

        • dlb eh

          Greg Fenton dlb eh DeclanK 
          leaves plenty of room for Kessel, Gardiner, Phaneuf, Reilly, JVR, Kadri, Lupul to grow into that same category as Doughty.  Liew talks about the players he knows, not the ones he doesn’t.

        • djamon

          dlb eh Sssssh…that doesn’t jibe with his argument.

        • Greg Fenton

          dlb eh Greg Fenton DeclanK only Gardiner, Reilly and kadri are players with room to grow….Lupul will be 30 before the seasons starts any out hink there is still untapped potential there? 
          It also depends on what a superstar is to him – he mentioned Gretzky. If he only talking that level of player, then you have to have Crosby, Stamkos, maybe Malkin and thats it.

        • Greg Fenton

          dlb eh Greg Fenton DeclanK only Gardiner, Reilly and kadri are players with room to grow….Lupul will be 30 before the seasons starts any out hink there is still untapped potential there? 
          It also depends on what a superstar is to him – he mentioned Gretzky. If he only talking that level of player, then you have to have Crosby, Stamkos, maybe Malkin and thats it.

    • Mcost61

      DeclanK I would not mind a Toews

      • leafscapguru

        Mcost61 DeclanK why? we have Bozak!!!!! (joke)

    • dlb eh

      DeclanK
      Freidman – What does an NHL team have to do to win
      Lieweke – “PATIENCE”, “hire good people”

      • dlb eh

        DeclanK
        I’m satisfied now.  Any time I hear someone report Lieweke is trying to tell Nonis how to do his job, I’ll be happy to take it for what it is.

      • Greg Fenton

        dlb eh DeclanK and also when to make the difficult decision (like when the Kings switched coachs).

  • thelongroad

    Good morning

  • thelongroad

    Am looking to stream leaf games this season any advice would be much appreciated.

    • dlb eh

      thelongroad 
      mute, then substiture with radio commentary simulcast

    • Jmessih

      Free streaming or are you looking to pay?

  • Jmessih

    Wow is it a slow morning on here.
    It’s nearly noon with not much to report out of the comment section.
    Well other than Tornado (see it is catching on) not getting cut from the USA team…for now. Hope he makes it tho!!

  • thelongroad

    Sorry but i have no tv provider i just stream all my tv. Was hopeing to get leaf games from nhl game center.
    does anyone use them to watch games live.

    • NotInsane

      thelongroad 
      My friend had in Kingston, Ont to watch Habs games (he was from Montreal).  He said they often blacked out games… he didn’t enjoy his experience.

      • wiski

        NotInsane thelongroad If the game is on tv it’s blacked out. this is the place you want, no black out’s and all the hockey you can eat.

        http://www6.hockeystreams.com/index

  • TML__fan

    Whether you like Nonis’ previous moves or not, I’m still a bit surprised how Nonis has left himself such little cap space to sign these last two important RFA’s.  There were really two options in front of him with respect to Liles, a trade or a buyout.  He missed the buyout opportunity, and I would think a trade now is going to be very difficult.  Waiving Liles is a total waste unless you want an expensive assistant coach playing in the AHL.
    It may be against the code of many GMs to offer sheet another team, but Nonis’s plans could be complicated further if a couple GM’s stepped up and gave offer sheets to Franson and Kadri.  Other teams could offer either player up to $3.3M and only have to give up a 2nd round pick in compensation.  Now, if that was the case Nonis would match, and find a way to get under the cap (as difficult as that may be).  But if any GM really want to put the screws to the Leafs and Nonis, they could offer sheet one or the other up to $5M and just give up a 1st and 3rd rounder.  Nonis would be hard-pressed to match that offer, and if he did, it would be unlikely he could keep both players.  I suppose it comes down to how much you value both Kadri and Franson.  I for one do not want to see either of them leave, but an offer sheet (or two) could really put the screws on Nonis.

  • Greg Fenton

    Yaknowwhat Greg Fenton Nothing is ever guarneteed, but if you add a Stamkos there is more…….reason to expect great improvement. The Leafs haven’t added that kind of player, and the comments I’m saying that too are ones that are assuming there will be great improvement because of assumed development. 
    You also need to read my posts. I wanted Grabovski bought out, I liked the Bernier traded and think its a good risk to take. But I understand the argument about the talent drop off at center and I’m not assuming Bernier will be great. I’m not saying the moves or players are bad, I’m saying I don’t see massive improvement because of them and I can’t understand the critism of them. 
    I think Nonis has made some marginal upgrades (Clarkson and Bolland), and brought in a high potential goalie.

    • Greg Fenton

      Yaknowwhat Greg Fenton I think the Leafs will be a bubble team again. They’ll finish in the 6th-10th range. I think at most they’ll win 1 playoff round. I think they lack top tier/franchise/grade A talent, and until they improve the top end of the roster they’ve basically hit the glass ceiling. 
      I think the single most important thing that needs to happen for the above to change is that Kessel has to (if he even can) play 82 games like he played the first 21 last year and the last 24 this year. Clarkson being an improvement over MacArthur, Bolland being better on the 3rd line, Bernier becoming a #1…….all secondary (at best) to that. I think trying to find that player through free agency or trade will be next to impossible.

    • The_Polish_Cannon

      Greg Fenton Yaknowwhat Stamkos has guaranteed nothing to tampa bay…

      • Greg Fenton

        The_Polish_Cannon Greg Fenton Yaknowwhat And?

      • Greg Fenton

        The_Polish_Cannon Greg Fenton Yaknowwhat Crosby and Malkin got the Penguins a cup, Toews, Keith and Kane go the Blackhawks 2. Kopitar and Doughty and Quick won in LA. Chara and Thomas won in Boston. Datsyuk and Zetterberg and Lidstrom won in Detroit (and Yzerman, Lidstrom, Fedorov before that)………so whats your point?

      • The_Polish_Cannon

        Greg Fenton The_Polish_Cannon Yaknowwhat it’s a team game man. It’s great to have a flashy top line but third lines win championships. Kovalchuck and brodeur never got NJ a cup, Sedins and Luongo couldnt get a cup, Lundqvist and Nash, Richards, Gaborik couldn’t get a cup

      • Greg Fenton

        The_Polish_Cannon Greg Fenton Yaknowwhat franchise talent (Crosby, Toews etc…) is part of the make up of a winning TEAM. 
        Nidermayer did get the Devils (and Ducks) cups. 
        That great talent doesn’t guarentee a cup win, but its something you need in order too win. Pointing out the teams that didn’t win with franchise doesn’t change the facts about teams that win all have franchise players.

      • The_Polish_Cannon

        Greg Fenton The_Polish_Cannon Yaknowwhat But you dont see them as franchise players until they’ve won. Hypothetically speaking if the Leafs won next season than you can look back and say the leafs won cuz they have Kessel Phaneuf and JVR

      • Greg Fenton

        The_Polish_Cannon Greg Fenton Yaknowwhat Thats not the case at all, its like everyone tough Crosby was just ok until he won. And just because Tavares and Pieternagelo haven’t won cups doesn’t mean they aren’t franchise talents.  
        If hte Leafs win the cup I’d only look back at those 3 if those picked up their games and played to the level of franchise players. 
        If you look back at the recent history of the league (the last 20, maybe 30 years or so) the only team I can thikn of that won the cup without that level of player woul dbe the Habs in 86 and 93, when Roy carried them (generally speaking I don’t count goalies because you always need great goaltending).

      • The_Polish_Cannon

        Greg Fenton The_Polish_Cannon Yaknowwhat well you counted Thomas. When the bruins won they never had any star power up front

      • Greg Fenton

        The_Polish_Cannon Greg Fenton Yaknowwhat And Quick. What I mean is, generally speaking a team can’t win only on the back of a great goalie (unless its Roy). 
        I’m not saying they need franchise talent all over the roster. The Devils won 3 cups without any franchise forwards. You just need 2-3 players of that level to have a winning team.

      • JMAC17

        Greg Fenton The_Polish_Cannon Yaknowwhat 
        You have an argument with Pits and Chi…but when you are talking LA you lose steam.
        Kopitar and Doughty are not more elite than Kessel and Dion.
        You are right we dont have the top tier elite player…but how many of them are in the league?  10? 12?
        How do we just add a “Stamkos”?

      • Greg Fenton

        JMAC17 Greg Fenton The_Polish_Cannon Yaknowwhat You need to watch LA more. Doughty is a guy you can build around (so is Kopitar), Kessel and Phaneuf are the guys you want playing with Doughty and Kopitar. 
        Thats the challange – finding one of those few. Generallly speaking, to add them you need to draft them.

      • JMAC17

        Greg Fenton JMAC17 The_Polish_Cannon Yaknowwhat 
        I would say the same about Kessel…he is a 10 top point and goal scorer in the league….you dont call that elite?
        Also, no brainer that Doughty is great and better than Dion, but Dion is still good and a top defender in the league.
        Pretty good building blocks

      • dlb eh

        Greg Fenton The_Polish_Cannon Yaknowwhat 
        the goalie is the single most important player

      • The_Polish_Cannon

        Greg Fenton JMAC17 The_Polish_Cannon Yaknowwhat only 3 players have accumulated more points in the past 2 seasons than Phil Kessel. They are Malkin, Stamkos, and Giroux. But apperently he’s only a complimentary player and not considered elite? Give your head a shake

      • Greg Fenton

        JMAC17 Greg Fenton The_Polish_Cannon Yaknowwhat I would call him elite, but not a franchise player. He isn’t consistant enough (compare his first 24 and second 24 games last year). 
        Chris Kunitz had more goals and the same number of points as Kessel. Riberio was 12th. Voracek was 9th in goals (more then Kessel), he isn’t a franchise player. Neal had 1 more goal in 8 less games then Kessel, he isn’t a franchise guy. etc….
        I think Phaneuf is a good #2 guy. 
        Pretty good, building blocks but no foundation.

      • Greg Fenton

        dlb eh Greg Fenton The_Polish_Cannon Yaknowwhat Yep, but you can’t win on the goalies back alone. The best goalie int he league with a weak team doesn’t win. You still need a team in front of him.

      • Greg Fenton

        The_Polish_Cannon Greg Fenton JMAC17 Yaknowwhat Its not all about points. Or are you going to argue that Stepan is better then Kopiotar and Thornton?

      • JMAC17

        Greg Fenton JMAC17 The_Polish_Cannon Yaknowwhat What did Doughty and Kopitar do this year?
        22 and 42 points respectively…but your logic that is good but not franchise….

      • Greg Fenton

        JMAC17 Greg Fenton The_Polish_Cannon Yaknowwhat Its not all about points and goals. 
        Are you going to argue that Riberio is better then Toews and Kunitz is better (or at least just as good) as Kessel?

      • Greg Fenton

        Murph2417 Greg Fenton I never said he wasn’t a good player (though getting better doesn’t = good), but he isn’t on that franchise level. If he played every game like he played the second 24 games of the season and the playoffs……..then we’re talking. 
        Lets hope he can bring that consistantly to the table next year.

      • The_Polish_Cannon

        Greg Fenton JMAC17 The_Polish_Cannon Yaknowwhat look at the centres that Kunitz and Voracek play with and compare that to Kessel playing with Bozak.

      • The_Polish_Cannon

        Greg Fenton Murph2417 every 30 goal scorer is going to go roughly 52 games without scoring.

      • JMAC17

        Greg Fenton JMAC17 The_Polish_Cannon Yaknowwhat No you just did in your argument that Kessel is not elite enough to be a foundation of a team.

      • JMAC17

        The_Polish_Cannon Greg Fenton Murph2417 And probably more than that…30 goal scorers double up the odd game or two.

      • Greg Fenton

        The_Polish_Cannon Greg Fenton Murph2417 having 20 points in the first 24 games and 32 points in the second 24 games does. 
        That means he went from a (in 82 games) a 68 point player to a 109 point player. In goals he went from a 21 goal player to a 48 goal player. Thats not a consistant preformance. And the rest of his game was the same, and did it last yer as well (only reverse, started out and great and feel off).

      • Greg Fenton

        JMAC17 Greg Fenton The_Polish_Cannon Yaknowwhat So only franchise players are good players? 
        I wouldn’t build a team around Hossa or Marleau either, but they are good players.

      • Greg Fenton

        Murph2417 Greg Fenton I’m not pessimistic, I’m not predicting a failure of a season or a collaspse or anything like that. I think they’ll maket he playoffs, I just don’t think they’ll win the cup. I think Kessel is a good player, just not one you can build around.

      • Greg Fenton

        Murph2417 Greg Fenton ANd i said they are improved, I wouldnt’ say much, but they are better. I expect them to make the playoffs, MAYBE win a round but thats about it. And until/unless they get lucky wtih someone in house or another GM loses his mind, I think they’ve hit their glass ceiling. 
        Who has won the cup without at least 1 franchise skater? 
        No team has won on depth alone. The Sabers had some good, depth teams int he 2000’s, but they never won a thing.

      • Leafs rule

        Murph2417 Greg Fenton and dont forget a coach like RC,hard nosed sob thjat loves the game ,the team ,etc etc

      • Greg Fenton

        Murph2417 Greg Fenton The Sabers in the mid 2000’s only had Miller. They never won a thing. 
        I didn’t say only those 3, I gave a list of current guys on here somewhere. 
        The thing is, teams that win the cup have allt hat team unity, good depth, etc… that people like AND 1 or 2 or 3 of the most talent/best players. Thats why I’ve been saying for a long time, the Leafs are really only 2-3 players away from being a contender.

      • dlb eh

        Greg Fenton Murph2417 
        cool.
        so how many times does the team that wins the Cup NOT have the hottest goalie in the league at the time?

      • Greg Fenton

        dlb eh Greg Fenton Murph2417 Probabl ynot that often, as I said, great goaltending is the constant and always needed.

      • dlb eh

        Greg Fenton dlb eh Murph2417 
        if you were to assemble an ideal checking line, could Bolland and Kulemin make up two thirds of that line?
        (i mean by NHL standards, not Olympic standards)

      • Greg Fenton

        dlb eh Greg Fenton Murph2417 I dunno, I’d hve to look at that and see what other teams are playing. A big part of that kind of line is how the players play together. Just look at Berg-Zezel-Osborn – individually all fine, but together….wow.

      • dlb eh

        Greg Fenton dlb eh Murph2417 
        if you could choose 2 power forwards, would Lupul and Clarkson be as good as any?
        mabe not the best.  but darned close to it right now.

      • Greg Fenton

        dlb eh Greg Fenton Murph2417 I never said the Leafs don’t have anyhting, On the contrary I said the Leafs are only 2 or 3 players/pieces away. The problem is those 2-3 are very hard to find, and thats what is so fustrating about were Burke took this team.

      • dlb eh

        Greg Fenton dlb eh Murph2417 
        that line was also a product of a team that played well defensively.
        there were 4 lines that could check, 6 defense that could play against top competition and hold their own, and a goalie who was as good as any at the time.

      • dlb eh

        Greg Fenton dlb eh Murph2417 
        i’m not arguing, i’m asking questions to see how you respond.  i don’t want to answer for you.

      • dlb eh

        Greg Fenton dlb eh Murph2417 
        thankfully, our Leafs are built with players with big windows, so there’s time to find those additions, whether internally or externally.

      • Greg Fenton

        dlb eh Greg Fenton Murph2417 I wouldnt’ call Lupul a power forward, but I would put  him on the same level as Kessel, or close to it. The question is, at 30 how long will he keep it up. I wouldn’t call Clarkson one of the best powerforwards in the league.

      • Greg Fenton

        dlb eh Greg Fenton Murph2417 I said that a couple weeks ago, t he Leafs aren’t a developing team. Their window is open now. That doesn’t mean the clock is ticking, but its open. 
        They have time to find those additions, but they are kind of additions that a team could go 10 years without finding. And as I’ve said, if they lock up Kessel and Phaneuf next year, their ability to add a franchise(s), just from a salary cap stand point, could very well be gone.

      • dlb eh

        Greg Fenton dlb eh Murph2417 
        i’m not understanding your meaning of developing
        we won’t know how good our prospects are until they make it, but nothing is to say that we’ve already drafted the players you’re saying we need

      • Greg Fenton

        dlb eh Greg Fenton Murph2417 I mean they aren’t a “development” team like say the Oilers or most likely the Flames now, were their main objective to give players ice-time and experience and see how good or bad they are. 
        There isn’t anything to say they haven’t got 3 Hall of Famers in their development system, but what reason doy ou have to expect it? Its not like they have MacKinnon in their system.

      • Momentum101

        I’m sorry Greg Fenton, u are a dumb ass. To say that Phil kessel is not elite. Wow. That’s the stupidest statement I have read on this site. There are only a cpl players that have gotten more points in the past three years. How is he not elite?? No player is gonna score every game. Every single player is gonna have off games. Shake your head and shut your mouth

  • Alec Brownscombe

    Be sure to give Nonis credit for the things you didn’t like about Burke then, too, Keon.
    Perhaps he wanted Connolly as much as Burke.

  • mlclearwater

    it’ll all work out gang. At least we don’t have Aki Berg with Jeremy Williams being our best prospect in the system

    • NotInsane

      mlclearwater 
      Yeppers!  Go Leafs Go!

  • dlb eh

    man, this site gets fucked sometimes…can’t reply…makes it near impossible to have a conversation

    • djamon

      dlb eh Tell me what you want to say and I’ll pass it on. If it’s good stuff I may claim it as my own.

      • dlb eh

        djamon dlb eh 
        all i have to say ever, is the truth of the matter

      • Leafs rule

        djamon dlb eh LMAO finally something real funny lol

        • djamon

          Leafs rule If you want funny you should read some of Fenton’s posts. Hilarious.

        • Leafs rule

          djamon Leafs rule I will not lol state a derogatory remark ,I will not ……..

        • djamon

          Leafs rule Come one…you know you wanna….

        • Leafs rule

          djamon Leafs rule Havin lunch now ,dont want to spoil it lol

  • wendelsfist

    This off season period  is such a  boring time of the year.

    • JMAC17

      wendelsfist frickin’ right…good thing my sons bday was yesterday…gave me something to think about for a week or so!
      Just more Dion talk here…

    • Black_Hawk

      wendelsfist straight up

  • Burtonboy

    Prospect Tom Nilsson will stay in Europe for 2013-14 season
    http://kylethereporter.com/2013/08/06/prospect-tom-nilsson-will-stay-in-europe-for-2013-14-season/#more-3533

    • Pent_House

      Burtonboy As expected, after this season he should probably come over to the Marlies.

    • Black_Hawk

      Burtonboy not surprising

  • silvermaple

    Either hockey is a team game or you have to have franchise players to win, you can’t have it both ways.  It helps to point to superstars on your roster, but it guarantees nothing. 
    I say your players need to be good enough to make the team competitive always, dominant sometimes.  That’s what we have now.
    Taking the longer view, I am concerned that the next wave of prospects will not live up to what we have right now.  So our window for success is the next couple of years.  After that, asset management is the make-or-break skill.

    • Greg Fenton

      silvermaple Of course you can, in fact it IS a combo of both. 
      Franchise players are part of what makes up a winning team. Thats like saying “either its a team game or the goalie is important, can’t have it both ways”.

      • JMAC17

        Greg Fenton silvermaple Fenton got a challenge for you.
        Name 30 “Franchise Players” by your definition.

        • Greg Fenton

          JMAC17 Greg Fenton silvermaple Probably not 30 in the league. I would go with Crosby, Malkin, E. Staal, Stamkos, Kopitar, Doughty, Toews, Kane, Keith, Tavase, Chara, maybe Ovechkin if he has refound his game, Sedins were not sure if they are at that level anymore, same with Thornton. Pieterangelo. Maybe/hopefully 1 or 2 of the kids in Edmonton. Datsyuk. Weber.

      • MaxwellHowe

        Greg Fenton silvermaple But you can be the victim of circular reasoning here.  Winners certainly gain star status.  But if you look at the Leafs, Can’t Phanuef play up to Seabrook standards?  Gardiner to Keith’s? (don’t laugh – at times against the Bruins Gardiner was dominating) Can Kadri lift his game to match Toews?  Kessel can certainly outplay Kane.  Lupul is every bit as good as Sharp IMO.  JVR is not that far from Hossa in terms of being an impact player.  Bernier or Reimer can play at least as well as Crawford.  Boilland is as good as, well, Bolland.  Are the Leafs really that far from having a contender quality team?

        • Greg Fenton

          MaxwellHowe Greg Fenton silvermaple Thats kind of my argument – Phaneuf is Seabrook, not Keith. 
          Maybe Gardiner can be the franchise player, maybe he can’t. I haven’t seen anything (his play or scouting report etc…) that makes me think its a realistic expectation. It would be great if he does but I’m not expecting it. 
          ALl kinds of things COULD happen, but its not likely that van Riemsdyk becomes Hossa, that Kessel becomes Kane, Kadri becomes Toews. 
          I’ve said before the most fustrating thing about hte Leafs right now is they are not that far off being a contender, but the pieces they are missing……extremely hard to find.

        • Dink

          Greg Fenton MaxwellHowe silvermaple Kane sux

        • MaxwellHowe

          Greg Fenton MaxwellHowe silvermaple I’m just saying, its not inconceivable that the pieces could be right there, that each player could elevate their game.  I don’t mean to suggest that Kadri will play just like Toews, etc, but just that the difference between each’s ability and potential is not as significant as you might think.

        • Dink

          Greg Fenton MaxwellHowe silvermaple depth and chemistry wins cups
          Pittsburgh should have won 4 cups in a row …on paper

        • Dink

          Greg Fenton MaxwellHowe silvermaple I wouldn’t trade anyone on the team for Kane

        • Greg Fenton

          MaxwellHowe Greg Fenton silvermaple Of course not, van Riemsdyk could be a Hall of Famer – but its not likely. I certainly wouldn’t expect it and I think its silly to be over optimistic based ont hat kind of hope. 
          And I wouldn’t have bet onKeith being a franchise D-man until he became one either. Just because Datsyuk is one of the best centers in the league doesn’t mean Carrick is going to be

        • Xxxxxnew

          Finishing near the bottom of the league five years in a row between 2002 and 2006 certainly restocked that team. Staal (2) Crosby (1) Malkin (2) Fleury (1) whitney (5)

        • dlb eh

          Xxxxxnew 
          not to mention the lottery
          Malkin a 2nd overall pick?
          winning the Cup is about doing everything you can to build a winning franchise…then being the luckiest team in the league when it matters most

        • Xxxxxnew

          Ovi was no. 1 that year.

        • Greg Fenton

          Xxxxxnew And whta makes the Penguins a good franchise is the other moves, signings, trades, draft picks etc…. that filled out the rest of the roster around those corner stone players.

        • Xxxxxnew

          Easy to do once you are rewarded with five top prospects for being one of the leagues crappiest managed organizations for half a decade. To the point of bankruptcy.

        • MaxwellHowe

          Greg Fenton MaxwellHowe silvermaple I’m simply making the point that you can’t know with any certainty that the Leafs do not have a franchise player sitting on the line-up already.  Plenty such players came out of virtually nowhere.  Leafs have players that have shown the ability to dominate at times.  Its not too much to hope that one or two of them take their play permanently to the next level.

        • Greg Fenton

          MaxwellHowe Greg Fenton silvermaple Of course not. By the same token, Kessel could “lose it” and become a 20 goal scorer for the rest of his career. van Riemsdyk could be playing in the AHL by next year etc… But I until I see something that makes me expect those out comes I don’t assume they will happen. Just like I don’t assume Kessel will join the ranks of Crosby or Stamkos until I see something that warrents that belief.

        • dlb eh

          Xxxxxnew agree
          how often does a team draft 1st overall and end up with the best players in the draft when the dust settles?
          half the time?  a third?
          how often do those players turn out to be the best players of their generation?
          Crosby, Malkin – rare
          Staal, Fleury, Letang … we have had guys that are that good on our team but never mentioned them in the same breath as Crosby or Malkin

        • Greg Fenton

          Xxxxxnew And thats what rebuilding (well not the bankruptcy thing). The Hawks did that, the Kings some early picks. The Bruins did but they didn’t lead to them winning. Yzerman was an early pick. So were Modano and Hatcher. Niedermayer was a 3rd overall pick etc….

        • dlb eh

          Greg Fenton Xxxxxnew 
          every team that wins has a history of rebuilding.
          so do the other 20 something teams that are never there

        • Xxxxxnew

          They weren’t rebuilding. They were dumping salary in an effort to make the franchise more attractive to make it easier for Lemieux to sell the organization so he could get back some of the $29million the Penguins owed him when they went bankrupt. Lemieux essentially was handed the team after the bankruptcy, and after agreeing to sell it Balsillie, and the league quashing the deal, he decided to keep the team after getting Crosby in the lottery.

        • Greg Fenton

          dlb eh Greg Fenton Xxxxxnew Most of them do (the Habs for example did it with just Roy basically), but what does that tell you about how you build a winner? 
          The fact that not everyone is successful doesn’t mean the team that win the cup haven’t all basically done it the same way.

        • Greg Fenton

          dlb eh Greg Fenton Xxxxxnew If there is job opening in your company that you want, and you know 1) Everyone who got that kind of promotion in the past submitted a Resume rather then waiting for their boss to suggest them for the job and 2) Not everyone who submitted a resume for a job opening/promotion got it…
          Would you conclude that you should or shouldn’t give your boss your resume and tell him you want to be considered?

        • dlb eh

          Greg Fenton dlb eh Xxxxxnew 
          what it tells me is there are many ways to skin the cat, which means you do not have to suck and draft high to draft well and win

        • Greg Fenton

          dlb eh Greg Fenton Xxxxxnew So who has won without doing that?

        • dlb eh

          Greg Fenton dlb eh Xxxxxnew 
          Red Wings didn’t draft Yzerman first overall.  that could have been Kadri.  they developed on the stregth of “not first round lottery picks”.  they actually sucked for so long and couldn’t find a franchise player for a while.
          there’s one.

        • Leafs rule

          Xxxxxnew yes and That makes Limeau one very lucky sob

        • Xxxxxnew

          Yzerman was cut or not asked out by various versions of team Canada three times early in his Career because he was considered one dimensional. Guys like Toccett and Sutter were picked ahead of him in 87. Scotty Bowman gets the credit for turning him into a two way player.

        • Greg Fenton

          dlb eh Greg Fenton Xxxxxnew They drafted him 3rd. 
          And sure it could have been Kadri, but Kadri hasn’t shown that yet or any reason to expect that out of him. 
          Now if youw ant to use the Red Wings you should use the 08 (I think) winning team. They did it with Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Lidstrom (5th, 6th and 3rd round picks). Thats a team who did exactly what I want the Leafs do, except they got lucky and found 1-2-3 draft pick quality prospects in the 5th and 6th round. Now I’m not saying the Leafs can’t/shouldn’t/won’t get lucky like that, but I’m certainly not depending on it. 
          The other two recent examples would be the Ducks and Bruins, two teams who took advantage of the first lock out and picked up Chara and Nidermayer and Pronger when their teams couldn’t retain them. I’d have no problem with hte Leafs picking up Stamkos or Pieterangelo when they become UFA’s. The question is when will that happen and will they be able to afford it.

        • Black_Hawk

          Xxxxxnew yeah thats right

      • djamon

        Greg Fenton Your argument is drifting further and further into nonsense.

        • Greg Fenton

          djamon Greg Fenton well when get to your level of nonsense I’ll know I’m in trouble.

      • silvermaple

        Greg Fenton silvermaple  I consider there are more variables at work here. Think of another team with top-6 wingers as good as the Leafs, and then let them go through a season uninjured.  Have them get used to each other for a few years, and learn a Detroit possession game.  Include a strong shutdown line, like the Leafs for the upcoming year.  They must have top-end young goalies too, like the 2013-2014 Leafs.  Would they not have a good shot at going deep in the playoffs?  I think so.
        Are you saying a team composed entirely of the top-15 players at their position (but not franchise players) would not win the Stanley Cup if they played consistently at the level they are capable of? 
        They would meet mostly teams not competitive with them, and their losses would likely be infrequent.  An opponent with one franchise player would be in tough at least 2/3 of the time.  And if that player is their goalie, on for all 60 minutes, they will have trouble scoring.

      • Greg Fenton

        Murph2417 Greg Fenton Other teams have franchise players and good depth as well. If they had, why didn’t Chara and the Bruins win?
        And more then 1 team has franchise talent and good depth, but only one of them can win. But to win, you need those elements.

    • MaxwellHowe

      silvermaple Our forward prospect list is fairly thin, no doubt.  Having said that, round 1 picks on the roster now include JVR, Kessel, Lupul, Kadri, Phaneuf and Gardiner – only one of whom did the Leafs actually draft.  So maybe there’s more than one way to skin a cat

  • Dink

    Yaknowwhat Greg Fenton this is like Point, Counter-Point

  • Conis

    Have they scrapped the idea of the mobile site?  
    The comment grouping has made it pretty difficult on mobile devices (at least my android w/firefox or chrome), the mobile site gave comments at least a little more structure despite the grouping. 
    Am i doing something wrong or is that just the way it is..?
    That being said…this is the only site for leafs fans.  Great work by Staff and Community alike, been lurking for years and rarely comment.  Thank everyone for keeping me sane.

    • Anthony Petrielli

      @Conis I forget if Alec told me it’s being scrapped or worked on, but I thought it was being worked on. 

      I have an android and all I do is scroll down to the comments area and they load just fine. It can be a little finicky at times though.

      • MLHS_Luke

        Anthony Petrielli I have the same problem on my iPhone.  You can’t see the comment tree, or whatever you want to call it.

    • Black_Hawk

      @Conis works pretty well on my htc one

  • dlb eh

    we’re looking at each player’s role that Carlyle would like to utilize, and then we’re trying to find the best personnel to fill them.
    more time will be needed to develop and assess our youngsters, but so far the coach has done well to define the type of team he wants, and management has done well putting the pieces in place.
    with a little luck this could come together sooner, but either way, we’re in good shape to continue to shape this bitch.
    that’s what other teams will be up against against: a real bitch

  • Xxxxxnew

    Interesting bit of commentary on Seguin from the Boston Globe in a post season review of the Bruins:
    The Bruins once projected Seguin to be a Steven Stamkos-like offensive threat. But Seguin’s hockey sense and battle level didn’t develop to match his speed and shot. Seguin played most of the postseason on the third line.
    Seguin played center in junior hockey. But Seguin was not going to displace David Krejci or Patrice Bergeron in the middle.
    The Bruins tried to play Seguin in the middle this season when Bergeron was unavailable because of a concussion, but he did not fare well at center, displaying neither the smarts nor courage required of the position.

    • Pent_House

      Xxxxxnew You’ve turned into the food for thought guy with 3 month old articles lol

      • Xxxxxnew

        LOL. I like reading hockey stuff from other cities, but sometimes in the summer when there’s not much hockey chat I stumble on stuff I missed when it came out. I figure there’s others out there like me who might not have seen it. It was the last sentence that surprised me, about smarts and courage.

        • dlb eh

          Xxxxxnew 
          doesn’t surprise me.  that’s how i view him.

        • mORRganRielly

          Xxxxxnew You and me both.  I try to sate my hockey appetite by checking up on other franchises.

        • Pent_House

          Xxxxxnew The only time I’ve ever been impressed with Seguin is the year the Bruins won the cup, when he got inserted in the play-offs against Tampa. I hate his face, he’s got one of those punch me in the face, faces.

        • Jmessih

          Yes he does

        • Leafs rule

          Xxxxxnew Count me in that pgroup thatmisses the odd story that doesnt directly involve the leafs as well,Glad we got our man Kessel anyways cause Seggie sucs afterall lol

    • mORRganRielly

      Xxxxxnew By the way, were you reading Dupont’s article?  Because he’s been highly critical of Seguin.

      • Xxxxxnew

        It was by another writer, but I saw the DuPont writuo a few weeks ago. I’ve also read similar stuff at Boston.com and in the Boston Herald.

        • djamon

          Xxxxxnew You have to watch this though because the Boston media are notorious for throwing athletes who leave Boston under the bus. Not just athletes…managers too.

        • Xxxxxnew

          I agree about the Boston media, but its been written about before, like this from Boston.com during the 2012 playoffs:
          For two games of the Bruins-Capitals series, there hasn’t been a player on either team who’s eluded a check. Such black-and-blue play has not been suited to Bruin Tyler Seguin’s offensive game.
          As a rookie, Seguin’s flickering battle level cost him playoff games. He was a healthy scratch for 12 postseason matches.
          As a second-year pro, Seguin has shown far more courage than he did as a rookie. But in the first round, Seguin has played like he’s been hearing footsteps. His performance in all three zones has suffered as a result.

      • Leafs rule

        mORRganRielly Xxxxxnew I think he is so young there is some shance he turns out great but his contract is to long to high for such a youngster imho

      • Black_Hawk

        mORRganRielly Xxxxxnew again glad we have kessel instead

    • Black_Hawk

      Xxxxxnew glad we have kessel

  • Jmessih

    Anyone here really think Gareth Bale is worth 100 million euros?
    Like Ronaldo had accomplished so much more (and was a better player) and was bought for 80.
    Does anyone here even speak Football (soccer) I had to ask lol I’m really bored

    • Xxxxxnew

      Your words are strange to me ….

      • Jmessih

        LMAO – I had to give it a shot, I’m very bored at work and wanted to get a debate going. Was not really feeling a rebuild debate.

        • Komas Taberle

          Jmessih It’s called Fitba wher I’m from.

        • dlb eh

          Komas Taberle Jmessih 
          summer school kindergarten?

        • Komas Taberle

          dlb eh Komas Taberle Jmessih Glasgow!

        • dlb eh

          Komas Taberle dlb eh Jmessih 
          ah…similar to our kindergarten here in Can-a-da
          haha

        • Komas Taberle

          dlb eh Komas Taberle Jmessih Orr, Bolland, Clarkson are all off the Scots, forgive us for Healy!!

        • dlb eh

          Komas Taberle dlb eh Jmessih 
          Healy’s good at blowing the pipes, so he’s not useless, it’s alright

        • Komas Taberle

          dlb eh Komas Taberle Jmessih Healy was the drip on his fathers leg, that somehow crawled up and in.

        • dlb eh

          Komas Taberle dlb eh Jmessih 
          ewww

        • Komas Taberle

          dlb eh Komas Taberle Jmessih Yeah that’s what i say when i look at him.

        • Jmessih

          At least I started a debate. And I’m from Ottawa I called it soccer, I was just appealing to our many friends on here who are European.

        • dlb eh

          Jmessih 
          you are quickly becoming know as a master debater ’round these parts 😉

        • Jmessih

          I do what I can when no one is saying something, try keep the comments going.
          Should totally get paid for it lol

        • TuckerForPunishment

          Jmessih This place is getting more soft and selfish by the minute.

    • Black_Hawk

      Jmessih i do not think so

  • dlb eh

    FUCK.  i can’t post again.
    so far, 3 teams didn’t have to draft lottery picks to win cups.
    MTL, NYR, NJD.  skip COL.
    DET.  DAL.  stopping here for now.
    most teams had a lottery pick become one of their best contributors, but they also brought in players that mattered and they drafted well later in the first round (and later).

    • Greg Fenton

      dlb eh Niedermayer was 3rd overall, thats a lottery pick. Leetch was 9th overall, and the 2nd of 3 top 10 picks in a row.

    • Greg Fenton

      dlb eh And you;’re right, teams ABSOLUTLY have to draft well later in the draft, make good trades and smart free agent signings to complement the franchise talent they get early int he draft. 
      1 or 2 picks does not make a cup contender

      • dlb eh

        Greg Fenton dlb eh 
        the Leafs have better young players than half the league that has drafted top ten players for the last decade
        you could draft in a lottery position for ten years straight and still be no better off than we are today, but you prefer those odds?  i find that odd.

        • Greg Fenton

          dlb eh Greg Fenton Thats subjective. I’m sure most non-Leaf fans would disagree. And define better. Wouldn’t a prospect like MacKinnon or Jones be worth almost any combo of prospects the Leafs have? 
          I prefer doing what is proven to produce winners then building an ok team and hoping a foundation falls into your lap.

        • dlb eh

          Greg Fenton dlb eh 
          you don’t want to talk about players potential, or else you’d allow Reilly, Gardiner, Kadri and the rest into the conversation.
          so no.
          i’m talking about our 25 and under group of NHL players matching up against the other teams in the league.

        • Leafs rule

          dlb eh Greg Fenton We dont need no stinkin lottery LMAO

        • Greg Fenton

          dlb eh Greg Fenton I have no problem talking about potential. But I haven’t seen anything to warrent assuming those 3 have Nidermayer, Lidstrom, Stamkos potential. 
          Again, thats subjective and depends on how you are judging. I’m sure that are some Edmonton fans who would disagree with you. And is there really a combo of  van Riemsdyk, Kadri, McLaren, Colborne, Gardiner and Holzer that wouldn’t be worth Stamkos or Tavares or Pieterangelo?

        • dlb eh

          Greg Fenton dlb eh 
          how is Kessel less than Stamkos?  what has Pieterangelo done that you witness regularily?  Tavares is awesome, but again…Kessel was just as highly touted in his draft year as JT was in his (except Kessel’s speed was never called into question).  he’s proven as much in the NHL already, so what potential are you waiting for to compare with here?

        • Greg Fenton

          dlb eh Greg Fenton Hes a better (in pretty much every way), more productive, more consistent player. And Kessel isn’t 25 or younger, so I’m not sure he would be brought into this. 
          Lots of players are highly touted (so was van Riemsdyk) that don’t live up to that. And Kessel was has highly touted as Tavares (he was the American Crosby) but he feel to 5th because people had lots of questions and concerns about him.

        • Greg Fenton

          Leafs rule dlb eh Greg Fenton that was Burke’s philosophy.

        • dlb eh

          Greg Fenton dlb eh 
          there’s no more room for JVR to improve now.  got it.
          so we won’t win unless we have a player not currently in our system.  got it.
          NYI and Tampa stand a chance but TOR doesn’t.  got it.

        • Leafs rule

          dlb eh Greg Fenton uhhhh lol yea we do ,I hate to disagree but I have to ,we have a chance makin the final round now imho

        • Xxxxxnew

          JVR has peaked it after playing his first season playing with the Leafs as a 23 year old.

        • Xxxxxnew

          Kessel IS 25 right now as we speak. Why do people seem to talk about him like he’s 31?

        • Greg Fenton

          dlb eh Greg Fenton Depends on what you mean by improve. I’m sure he’ll get better, but improve beyond “what he is”, ya. Sorry the elite or franchise player ship as most likely sailed on van Riemsdyk. 
          What player do the Leafs have that realisticlly has franchise player potential? And not “I think, I hope, maybe him”, I mean point to some scouts or hockey people saying he is that guy. 
          I’m hoping Rielly is/can be that guy and he a very highly rated guy (Button had him the 4th or 5th best prospect I believe). He is the one guy I have a little bit of hope for. The problem is, given his style he’ll have to be Niedermayer or Lidstrom to be that level of player, and I would bet he is probably more Letang then those guys but……Hope I’m wrong. 
          Islanders and Tampa have different needs. They have at least 1 piece of a foundation, for them it will depend on the rest of their high potential guys meeting expectations and successfully filling the roster in around them. Where It hink they have an advantage is, what they need most likely will be easier to find.

        • Greg Fenton

          Xxxxxnew He is 25 as we speak but he won’t play hockey again until he is 26. 
          And no one is talking about him like he is 31, but you don’t have to be 31 to max out your potential. Most players do that by their mid 20’s, and then play at that level (which is their primes). 
          Hell Danny Heatley, who had more success and better production then Kessel has yet to have, started to decline at the rip old age of 27. Its unlikey, but for all we know this will be Kessels best year and it willall down hill after 2013-2014.

        • dlb eh

          Greg Fenton Xxxxxnew 
          yet no hope for JVR, a big player with hands and speed a history of dominating against his peers.

        • Greg Fenton

          dlb eh Greg Fenton Xxxxxnew Whats wrong with being 25-30 goal, 50-55 point power forward who can play a complementry role on a top line or anchor a 2nd line? you might see something wrong with that, but I certainly don’t. Why is it if a player isn’t someone you can build around they are hopeless?  
          And dominating? Really? Lindros was a dominating power forward.

        • Black_Hawk

          Xxxxxnew stupid really

      • Black_Hawk

        Greg Fenton dlb eh that is true

      • leafscapguru

        Crosby and malkin on one team and they could even get a point against Boston in the playoffs. Franchise players are great but it’s team game not one or 2 guys.

  • Jmessih

    Would you guys want to sign Brendon Morrow for the league min (if he were ti accept that)
    I wouldn’t mind him on the third or forth line

    • Greg Fenton

      Jmessih They don’t have the money.

      • Jmessih

        I was thinking drop one of the boxers for him.
        Could easily be done if JML is traded

    • Black_Hawk

      Jmessih cant afford him unfortunately but i would if we did

  • Xxxxxnew

    I said this earlier but I want to repeat that JVR is only nine months older than rookie camp prospect Andrew MacWilliam (who is two years younger than Phil Kessel).

    • Greg Fenton

      Xxxxxnew Wow, MacWilliam’s is getting up there for a prospect.

      • Jmessih

        Ya JVR is just a little baby, hope he continues to grow, he had a great season for us. Just hope he stops getting knocked odwn infront of the other teams neat and such.
        Well MacWilliam did all four years of college

        • Black_Hawk

          Jmessih yeah the sky is the limit for JVR i think and for phil too for that matter

      • djamon

        Greg Fenton He’s not really a prospect…more a career minor leaguer.

        • rustynail

          djamon Greg Fenton a guy who actually graduated before turning pro

      • Xxxxxnew

        Just turned 23 in march. Finished out school. About the same age as Gardiner.

      • Black_Hawk

        Greg Fenton Xxxxxnew hope he surprises us

  • Optimustic

    Good article Anthony,  You may want to corrrect the Bernier link.  It says saviors instead of savours.  :-)  I agree that we could get both RFA’s signed with the 4.9, but it doesn’t leave much breathing room.   I hope they can find a home for Liles, as it’s a shame to have to send players down too often.  He deserves better too,  just like Komi and Connolly —- well at least one of them.

    • Waiting4LSC

      O: that’s a cap hit of $2.5m for each (averaged). Not sure I am a buyer at that amount, I’m tending closer to a cap hit of $6m minimum. What do you see as giving the Leafs the $4.9 m good sir?

  • Jmessih

    Well folks work day is coming to a close for me, I’ll catch you all here tomorow. Looking forward to some hockey news…..please.

  • Knights2Leafs

    From Greg Fenton: “I never said the Leafs don’t have anyhting, On the contrary I said the Leafs are only 2 or 3 players/pieces away. The problem is those 2-3 are very hard to find, and thats what is so fustrating about were Burke took this team. You add Stamkos and Pieternagelo to this team…….cup contender.”
    So apparently we’re only a Stamkos and Pieterangelo away from contending.  Good thing we bought out Grabo to free up some cap space for our two new players.

  • rustynail

    https://twitter.com/43_Kadrihttps://twitter.com/43_Kadri/status/364838261442621440
    Redemption https://twitter.com/search?q=%23tml&src=hash http://t.co/kWR3dS91GJ

    • JMAC17

      rustynail Man I love Kadri….get him SIGNED!!!

      • Black_Hawk

        JMAC17 rustynail lol for sure