(Sunday Mashup) Corey Pronman on TSN 1050

(Sunday Mashup) Corey Pronman on TSN 1050

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Corey Pronman talking draft prospects for the Toronto Maple Leafs, Edmonton Oiler and Florida Panthers on TSN 1050.

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964 comments
Cameron19
Cameron19

I remember when we used to over-rate players who actually kind of deserved it - like Jeff Carter and Mike Richards. A lot of what got said about them is getting said about O'Reilly and Kane and similar players. Difference is, Carter and Richards had been to a Cup Final, Carter had posted a 46 goal, 84 point season, and Richards had been playing at over a PPG clip for over 2 seasons. Sad state of affairs when we're applying the same hyperbole to guys with 64 point career highs on the wing, with inflated percentages. 

Uncle Otis
Uncle Otis

Jesus,go away for a weekend to log on to see some "vine" that I have NO IDEA what it means and then see Cam say he'd draft Kadri again over ROR and Kane

I'm going back to the beach...to drink

mike_84
mike_84

How high Does Fabbri go? kids seems to have loads of talent. 

Uncle Otis
Uncle Otis

@Cameron19 

Based on that argument one could say you are evaluating Kadri in the same way Cam

It works both ways

Cameron19
Cameron19

@Uncle Otis I just said over Kane, not ROR. But yea, over Kane every day of the week. 

loomx
loomx

@Uncle Otis ROR, Kadri, and Kane are pretty interchangeable at this point. ROR has the advantage over both because of his defensive game for me though.

Cameron19
Cameron19

@Uncle Otis @Cameron19 Because I don't think he's substantially worse than O'Reilly I'm over-valuing Kadri? Last two seasons:

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Kadri: 38g, 56a, 94p, +3 (0.75ppg)

ROR:34g, 50a, 84p, -4 (0.77ppg)

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Yet, I MUST rate Kadri far lower or I'm being ridiculous and over-valuing? Okay. 

Uncle Otis
Uncle Otis

@Cameron19 @Uncle Otis 

Huh?

"That is a horrendous undervaluing of Kadri though. I would not take Leddy, Tatar, Kane, Barrie (that is the worst one, by far), Reilly or Schenn before Kadri"

Uncle Otis
Uncle Otis

@BrandonCheema @Uncle Otis 

I thought you were going to factor in the head space

...and ROR?

This is laughable to me...and likely every other GM in the league.


Uncle Otis
Uncle Otis

@Cameron19 @Uncle Otis 

Then pay more attention when you watch them play

And piss on two year evaluations...he substantially out performed him THIS year

Cameron19
Cameron19

@Uncle Otis Oh, and lets not even factor in their most common linemates:

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Kadri: Lupul, Komarov, MacArthur, Clarkson

ROR: Duchene, McGinn, Landeskog, MacKinnon. 

Cameron19
Cameron19

@Uncle Otis @Cameron19 Oh, the year he rode high percentages and Stastny took all the tough shifts while he moved to the wing of Matt Duchene?  I'm shocked!!  You're telling me a player had success in this position? Even more so than someone saddled with David Clarkson as on of their two most common wingers?? Well, no more need to question anything then. I'll just have to "watch closer". 

Cameron19
Cameron19

@Uncle Otis @Cameron19 @djamon Ha, no, I'm not changing my mind. Just a typo. 

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On the subject though, I don't rate O'Reilly as being substantially better than Kadri. That's a very thin margin. I think had they been drafted by each other's teams, you would likely think Kadri is the better player. 

djamon
djamon

@Uncle Otis He's called him ROR every other time he's referred to him. It was a mixup is all.

Uncle Otis
Uncle Otis

@Cameron19 @Uncle Otis 

Well,I have seen a lot of both and there is no comparison imo in hockey smarts

The way they react,play position and force the play...with fewer turnovers by O'Reilly..one of Kadri's big weaknesses

ROR is far more the advanced player...and Kadri stil very much a "work in progress"

RandomScrub
RandomScrub

@Cameron19 @Uncle Otis It is quite telling that Kadri was ONLY 8 points behind ROR with having some pretty oddball wingers throughout the year. 

Uncle Otis
Uncle Otis

@Cameron19 @Uncle Otis @djamon 

Ok..mulligan

But I  didn't see other teams offer sheeting Kadri

When you look at the two players there is no comparison in overall game imo...and if you are trying to say Kadri could be better due to skill set...well that has yet to be proven

Colorado would laugh if we offered them straight up

Why?

Because other teams would blow us out of the water scrambling to get him

And Kane is by far a superior player..but factor in wing and head space especially and I can see an argument to be made


loomx
loomx

@Cameron19 @Uncle Otis @djamon Kadri is only just behind ROR in terms of points per game playing 2nd line minutes and 2nd PP time with Lupul and Kulemin/Raymond/Clarkson. Have to wonder what numbers he'd put up playing with Duchene and MacKinnon/Landeskog..................or Kessel.

Cameron19
Cameron19

@Uncle Otis @Cameron19 In your opinion. Sorry, but I just don't think there's much of anything to back that up. I'll bet you all their advanced stats are very similar as it relates to this subject. 

Cameron19
Cameron19

@Uncle Otis @Cameron19 @djamon Oh, and Kane isn't the superior player in anyway except speed.  Seems to me like you've been poisoned against the Leafs by all the constant negativity. Kadri has out-produced the kid for two seasons now, and as you said, plays the more valuable position. I watch both players extensively, and Kane's biggest fault is that he's a moron. Now he might get smarter as he gets older, but right now he's a one-trick pony who isn't adapting. 

Cameron19
Cameron19

@Uncle Otis @Cameron19 @djamon I really don't give a shit about offer sheets or what Colorado would laugh at.  Many, many good players don't get offer-sheets - including the reigning Norris defender. That speaks more to the character of the player in not seeking them out than it does to the quality of the player.  Just because Jay Feaster didn't understand how offer-sheets work is hardly a ringing endorsement. 


If other teams scramble that bad to get him, they are stupid. He is quite over-rated if that is case. 

Cameron19
Cameron19

@loomx @Cameron19 @Uncle Otis @djamon O'Reilly is a question mark to me. The guy played most of his career as a checking center, and while he was praised for doing it at a young age, the bottom line is, his team was awful with him in that role. Is that his fault? No. But Stastny took over that role this year and did a better job immediately. Then O'Reilly moved to wing and produced at the same clip as Bozak playing next to Duchene - yet for some reason doesn't receive any of the "well look at his line-mates" stuff that Bozak does. And I'm not comparing those two players, it's just interesting what will get over-looked once people have made their mind about a player. 

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It just sort of boggles my mind that he's being spoken of as a legitimate 1C, and yet, he's only been in that role for all of 10 games in his career. 

Uncle Otis
Uncle Otis

@Cameron19 @Uncle Otis 

Advanced stats..yeah

Well dig them out...

And remember..it's just your "opinion" too

We wont agree,but I like my guy far more... as does most the league

Of that I'm certain.

Uncle Otis
Uncle Otis

@Cameron19 @Uncle Otis @djamon 

In Colorado some think ROR can land them PK Subban or Weber..the other side of silly

Solid two ways that can take care of both ends of the ice and play like him don't grow on trees

Kadri tantalizes and teases with talent but consistency and two way play are hardly his strong points

He's still a giveaway machine and hasn't made that final step that ROR has...and he may never

I cant understand how you don't see this,but outside of Snow,I'm certain every other GM in the league does

You don't care...fine

But to think you know better is betting on futures,not what has transpired on ice to date

Cameron19
Cameron19

@Uncle Otis @Cameron19 @djamon His two-way play is a bit of a farce though, and that will be exposed immediately if he comes to this market. He was a checking center before this year, and never did a very good job of it despite all the praise he got. This year he got to take on some lesser competition and broke out offensively, but was a minus player. He doesn't throw hits, and a lot of the qualities generally attributed to him are basically just nonsense being fueled by the good ole boys Wendel Clark fan club in Toronto. 


Again, I don't care what most GMs think. Most of them are wrong constantly - which is why 3-5 teams dominate the league year after year. 

Uncle Otis
Uncle Otis

@RandomScrub @Uncle Otis @Cameron19 

That is based on much of what I hear and read.

Its not guesswork,nor arbitrary..simply the way both players are spoken of in evauations from people in the game

Uncle Otis
Uncle Otis

@Cameron19 @Uncle Otis @djamon 

Wendel Clark boyz? Not that tired argument again

Might be more the Dougie fan club...and that's a GOOD thing

You know,a tenacious puck man who creates TONS of turnovers as opposed to making them and is solid two way

I'm not saying Id take ROR over a dozen or so others playing up the middle but this is about comparing him RIGHT NOW to Kadri

To say you know more than all the other GMs and the vast majority who would agree  is arrogance..based on fandom


Cameron19
Cameron19

@Uncle Otis @RandomScrub @Cameron19 Because one is a Leaf, and one isn't. Plain and simple 

Cameron19
Cameron19

@Uncle Otis @Cameron19 @djamon He didn't even play center this year and yet you're talking about how he'd be up the middle, or how GMs perceive him in that role. It's ridiculous. 


I'm not saying I know better, I'm just saying I don't agree with them. Maybe I'll be wrong - but they're wrong often enough that I don't have to just agree with what they (or what the media tells us they) think. 


Personally, this two-way play stuff is a little out of control. Is he better at it than Kadri. Sure. has he ever had success with it as a center? No. He was on a very successful team that rode insane percentages this year. Lets re-evaluate before we anoint him. 

Uncle Otis
Uncle Otis

@Cameron19 @Uncle Otis @djamon 

FYI...Colorado's a little deeper than most at center

The guys still a pivot and outscored Kadri by eight playing out of position and NOT always on #1 pp

Cameron19
Cameron19

@Uncle Otis @Cameron19 @djamon  As opposed to Kadri NEVER being on PP 1, despite being statistically our most successful forward on the PP? I like how being out of position is being sold here, too - as if it was difficult to move to wing. 

Uncle Otis
Uncle Otis

@Cameron19 @Uncle Otis @djamon 

It cuts down on assists for sure playing wing vs center..and Kadri did get #1 PP mins when Bozie went down

Yes,lets put Kadri on wing if its that simple eh?

C'mon Cam

Cameron19
Cameron19

@Uncle Otis @Cameron19 @djamon It's not that simple, it's about being able to do it properly - with excellent supporting players. That was my whole point. If you could stick Kadri on Duchene's wing, and you asked O'Reilly to make Clarkson work in Carlyle's system, do you really think we'd be talking about this right now? Of course fucking not, but the Leafs have shit depth and can never surround their players with enough talent. 


How can you not see that one player was primed for success and one player was saddled with a far more difficult situation? Oh, and of course, we have to throw away last season - that doesn't count, because Kadri significantly out-performed him then.