Almost had the title but Vesa ruined it.
Let me preface this blog by saying goaltending talent and progression isn’t my scouting forte, but I’ve talked with other scouts and former goaltenders in an effort to better understand the position.
In an unrelated interview last season, former Rangers and Red Wings goaltender Ed Giacomin mentioned his disbelief of pure butterfly goaltending. He felt it wasn’t the way to develop younger goalies, rather for more established goaltenders to incorporate in a stand up style. Instead of staying on their feet and reacting to the play, the initial reaction is to drop to their knees and he went on to say it’s too easy for a struggling goaltender to drop as a reaction to the play, reverting to that technique instead of utilizing natural athleticism to react.
I’ve figured that it comes down to predictability with goalies. If shooters realize certain tendencies – and video scouting makes that easier – they will exploit them at every opportunity.
Ask poor Stephen Valiquette (another butterfly goaltender who’s natural reaction was to drop to his knees) of the New York Rangers, shell-shocked in the third period of a 10-2 rout by the Dallas Stars. The more the Stars scored, the quicker he was down in his butterfly as the period went on, and .. well the results speak volumes.
This problem was evident in the Leafs 5-2 victory over rivals, the Montreal Canadiens. Before Carey Price is crucified in the Montreal media, it should be noted he shares the same problem as Leafs prospect Justin Pogge and number one goaltender Vesa Toskala this season.
In Toskala’s case, there seemed to be a slight change in the mentality on Saturday night, but the other two goaltenders are having trouble despite spurts of exceptional play. Pogge seems to be in the best spot to correct this issue in the AHL (where perhaps Price should be working this out), although he is still using the same coach to work through these issues.
Both goaltenders fall to their knees way too early in their stance, reacting to the play, almost as a fail-safe, taking away the lower part of the net and becoming ‘big’ to take away the space and angle. It isn’t so much goaltenders making saves, rather than relying on players hitting them with the puck. It’s very Raycroft-ian.
In Pogge’s case, this is a season-long phenomenon with the Marlies. TSN’s Bob MacKenzie was quick to point out last week during the Leafs/Sabres telecast that Pogge hasn’t done anything in the AHL to warrant a look in the majors, and it’s a sentiment I share, because of this technique among other factors.
The Buds didn’t really offer much help in his two blowout starts, but refer to Drew Stafford’s goal in Buffalo last week. Stafford undressed, then stepped by Mike Van Ryn, roofing a shot over Justin Pogge who was down on his knees way, way too early on that play among others. The puck hadn’t left Stafford’s blade before Pogge was on his knees leaving the upper part of the net exposed. Granted Stafford made an excellent play, but had Pogge stood his ground (be less predictable) the goal could have been avoided.
Four of the five goals on Price on Saturday were of the same variety; glove hand high – Blake should be sending him a box of chocolates – similar to the series against the Flyers in the Conference Semi-Finals last spring. The emotional – almost tear-inducing – interview after Saturday’s game focused on professionalism and ability to work harder.
And I scream hogwash. The kid has problems with the fact that he’s a pure butterfly goaltender and that style is his own determinant. The book is out and shooters know that he drops as a first reaction. He then stays down with a good ability to move laterally with slight movements off the toe of his skates covering the net. He won’t steal many games if he doesn’t find a way to recover quicker from initially dropping to his knees.
Patrick Roy, the pioneer of the modern-day butterfly (Glenn Hall used to use the style too, and was asked to stop), had a unique ability to go down fast, take the lower part of the net away and then recover using superior athleticism to augment butterfly skills.
He wasn’t stuck in the butterfly position after initially dropping and moving post-to-post ala Price, and he didn’t rely on the style to make him competitive. In the pioneering days equipment was heavy and goal pads retained water making them heavier. He had to figure out a happy medium to be successful, and he did. It’s what elite goaltenders do; combining athleticism and ability to hybrid styles making saves (see Evgeni Nabokov, Nicklas Backstrom, Martin Brodeur and Roberto Luongo)
As for Vesa Toskala, I think this is one of the main reasons he’s stinking it up this season. Watching the goaltenders at training camp being instructed by goaltending coach, Corey Hirsch, aside from basic technical and fundamental positioning, all three Leafs goaltenders were being taught to butterfly.
Toskala is not a pure butterfly goalie and shouldn’t be forced. Relying on athleticism and a modified hybrid style, it’s easy to spot holes appearing this season in relation to 2007-08. In the second half of last season (and in fact, all season), the goaltender relied heavily on a modified butterfly with floppy athletic style a la Boston goaltender Tim Thomas. Recovering from the initial fall to his knees, he was able to use athleticism and reflexes to make the impossible stops that grew his reputation as a marketable asset for the Leafs rebuild.
This season, off the hop, he dropped to his knees and tried to ‘be big’. This has hurt his overall effort and made him just as predictable as Carey Price and Justin Pogge.
Publicly lambasted by Leafs management on work ethic and lack of willingness to work on his “issues,” on Saturday he played one of his best games. Why?
He seemed to revert to his old acrobatic self. He flip-flopped around when he had to, and when he went back to the butterfly he was beaten like the Tom Kostopoulos tap-in for Montreal’s second goal, when the puck squirted off to his right and fell alone in the crease, while he was down on his knees in a butterfly crouch to the left side. The camera angle from inside the net showed this perfectly.
Add the mental aspect for a goaltender like Toskala, who relied on natural athleticism, thinking about the technique and reacting put him behind the count because instead of reacting naturally, he’s moving in a mechanical, predetermined fashion as per the coaching demands of the organization.
Tim Thomas has been successful in an unorthodox style because the B’s have let him develop that on his own.
This, to me, is not a direct reflection on any of these goaltenders abilities, but coaching issues. Before Leafs management start lambasting goaltenders publicly in an effort to light a fire, perhaps they should look internally and realize they’re hindering efforts and in the end, diminishing trade value (due to fundamental skills, not necessarily on sketchy performance) and in the end, their own return for the rebuild.
Burke had another butterfly goalie in J.S. Giguere but Ron Wilson saw what Evgeni Nabokov can do in a hybrid style.
While dropping down, goaltenders also have to rely on their defense doing their job and clearing pucks from in front of the goal, and controlling forwards driving to the net looking for rebounds. This double onus on rearguards stifles the momentum of a transitional attack allowing the opposition to set up on defense and taking away the element of speed across the neutral zone and in effect limiting odd-man rushes.
There are issues plaguing all three netminders. Goalies are difficult to read and my analysis could be off, but I believe they should remain unpredictable.
If they are ever to become an elite goaltender (Price), marketable trade bait (Toskala) and a goalie of the future (Pogge), they have to start using their natural skills more often and stop relying on the one style altogether.
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February 10th, 2009 at 1:47 pm
Brodeur has an interesting style – he goes down on one knee rather than both and as a result, can recover to the upright position faster.
February 10th, 2009 at 1:50 pm
And he can also change it up in-game, depending on circumstances .. watch Luongo with his ability to stick his legs out, almost in the splits but be back up and ready for the next one right after the initial save.
It takes a lot of talent and practice to do that … Brodeur is the perfect model for modern goaltending. Thanx for the comment, Ian XXX …
February 10th, 2009 at 1:50 pm
Interesting take on the goalie issue, Gus.
I think you have something here.
I’ve often wondered why the goalies of today get beat high all the time. I guess I just thought the shooters were far superior to those of yesteryear, but I’ve seen some of the shooters of yesteryear, and they can shoot just as well as many of the shooters today.
February 10th, 2009 at 1:51 pm
I could be way off .. I completley acknowledge that as goalies are hard to get a read on. It’s predictability that makes great goalies average …
February 10th, 2009 at 2:12 pm
Some good points. To my un-intitiated in the ways of the goalie mind, there are some really intriguing points that make alot of sense.
I’ve never been of the opinion that simply butterfly, or stand up is the way to go. There’s situations that lend themselves to both, and a true master of the art could use either when needed and some fish out of water flopping, ala Dominik Hasek, to compliment when you get out of position.
February 10th, 2009 at 2:13 pm
Thanks for this Gus. It eases my mind (slightly) regarding our goaltending situation since it may be a problem that can be fixed in a short period of time. Both Toskala and Pogge clearly possess the natural talents, hopefully the coaching staff will read your blog. Alec, how about an email to Burke?
February 10th, 2009 at 3:02 pm
not all he’s ruined this season Gus
toskala has had a collection of issues this season between going down too early and showing his shooters too much net to flopping like a fish to completely losing his positioning in the net and giving teams easy tap ins. I think because he wants to play this butterfly style he’s presenting himself to shooters more and more and it’s costing him his ability to react to cross ice passes or rebounds. I’ve been thinking for a while now hybrid’s the way to go for goaltending in the postlockout NHL
February 10th, 2009 at 3:11 pm
Gus, thank you for providing strong analysis. If you can see this, why can’t the Buds’ coaching staff or even Coach Wilson (Nabokov)? Are the media going to press Buds management on this? It seems so illogical to continue with something that is not working unless “Draft Position” comes into play. Hindering player development is criminal. Any views as to why the Buds shooting is all quantity, no quality? Is this coaching too?
February 10th, 2009 at 3:15 pm
I think there’s been lots of attempts by the coaching staff to alter toskala’s approach graham but work effort in practise seems to be playing a big role in toskala’s disastrous season… he’s not trying to improve from the sounds of it but is resigned to his fate… he won’t be traded at the deadline but he’s not the long term keeper here, that’s clear
February 10th, 2009 at 3:19 pm
Maybe they should cut off Toskala’s internet privileges so he doesn’t spend all his time shopping for man-bags online.
February 10th, 2009 at 3:33 pm
Nice blog, Gus. I had noticed with Pogge that he goes down early and, as a big man, takes longer to get back up. I really don’t have as much faith in him as some of the people around here – I don’t think he’s going to be starting next year, he needs a lot more development.
P.S. there was an article in the Globe and Mail (I think) a few weeks ago saying that young goalies shouldn’t be taught the butterfly because it puts their bodies in unnatural positions and can open them up to a lifetime of injury. Maybe more ‘hockey minds’ are starting to question it and we could see some changes in the future.
February 10th, 2009 at 3:34 pm
…good read, gus…thanks for this…it would be interesting to ask shooters, such as a guy like vanek, about this…if word is out on a guy like vesa or price, in terms of committing early, some of the top shooters are likely trying their best to exploit it…i remember a game last year against philly where gagne was trying to go top glove corner on raycroft on every shot, and not even being subtle…he hit the post at least once, and on his 3rd or 4th attempt, scored….he did nothing to hide the fact that he was going there, and raycroft did nothing to adjust…i think with all the angles some of the shooters are able to get with the space around the net is also helpful…no hooks or grabs allow the shooter to wait out the goalie and make him commit before deciding on a potential cross pass or timely shot…the skill guys are just too good and have to much space for the ‘percentage’ style that we once saw work in a guy like belfour…being able to react and predict/read shooters may the more reliable style of the future…
February 10th, 2009 at 3:37 pm
It seems to me I’ve seen Vesa butterfly, after coming way out to cut down the angle – which seems to be combining the worst of both styles.
It takes him right out of the play on cross ice passes, or obtuse angle rebounds. I remember the true butterfly keepers staying in the blue paint, so that they have less ice to cover once they’re down & they need to get post to post on their knees.
Obviously, I don’t get paid for voicing this opinion – but it sure seems like an odd style he’s adopted this year.
February 10th, 2009 at 3:39 pm
As a goalie that plays a hybrid style, I can say that what you’re saying is 100% accurate. I think the butterfly works for goalies that are tall in stature. Roy and Giguere, 6′ and 6′1″ respectively are taller than Toskala 5′10″. Also if a goalie has a longer torso than others, he may be better suited to play a butterfly style.
All that to say that Toskala is not made physically to play that style and should revert to what he’s comfortable doing. He could play a style similar to Brodeur or Cujo from the 2002 season.
It’s more of a personal philosophy but I believe a goalie will be more successful if he reads and reacts rather than automatically dropping in a butterfly. It’s debatable, but one thing is for sure the butterfly is not working for Toskala.
Great article.
February 10th, 2009 at 3:42 pm
To combine what both wendel over mats and Roacho are *in my view* correctly assessing, Toskala, as an undersized tender who wants to play the butterfly style, needs to be perfectly timing it when he hits the ice. His timing has been way off and that’s the problem, in my view.
February 10th, 2009 at 3:45 pm
I used to play goal as an inline hockey player and at 5′6″ I was off normal size for the position what seems the eal problem is that scouts are really creaming their pants over big goalies Ben Bishop (6′7″) and last years draftee Jason Missaen (6′8″)who I wrote a piece on coaches are looking to train up these uber lanky netminders who can drop to the butterfly and use their long legs to propel them laterally. The days of Fred Brathwaite who was about 5′7″ are numbered because of this ludicrous style of which I am not a proponent. take your 3 best netminders of recent times Hasek, Brodeur and Thomas all three are hugely exciting to watch and play what I would describe as freestyle they’ve developed it themselves and it works while Nabokov demonstrates perhaps the most austere and mechanical hybrid in the world. Toskala usually eres towards a hybrid freestyle game but like someone said above his problems aren’t just up high, he is overcommitting to angles being pulled all over the place in net and goes down to easily. With Hasek as an exception you rarely see Thomas or Hasek scrambling around out of the crease i think Toskala’s main problem is a question of positioning and composure not to mention technique.
February 10th, 2009 at 3:47 pm
I should have said rarely see Thomas or Brodeur scrambling around. Got to start reading back my comments before I post them.
February 10th, 2009 at 3:55 pm
The Maple Leafs should try to sign Minnesota Wild UFA goalie Nicklas Backstrom in the summer. Sure he’s between 30-32 years old, but he’s a great NHL goaltender with comparisons to Miikka Kiprusoff. How can you not be intrigued by that?
February 10th, 2009 at 4:06 pm
What about Biron?
February 10th, 2009 at 4:11 pm
It’s too bad Ron Wilson couldn’t bring the goaltending machine that is the San Jose Sharks with him when he came here.
February 10th, 2009 at 4:21 pm
On Kostopoulos’ goal, Toskala had no idea where the puck was, that’s why he dropped down flat, didn’t want to make any excessive movements to trickle puc past through him.
February 10th, 2009 at 5:31 pm
Fascinating article – great read, great insight!
February 10th, 2009 at 5:32 pm
…greg…the problem is that many other teams who are contenders are also intrigued, so im not sure how wise it would be to pursue backstrom. he’s better served on a team poised for a playoff run, which the leafs will not be next year, most likey, or even the year after…also, the bidding war could potentially go pretty high for him…
February 10th, 2009 at 6:02 pm
I think you bring up some really good arguments, Gus. We’ve seen in here before, where a great goalie is rendered average by predictability. The guy I’m talking about is Mike Palmateer. Very good goalie earlier in his career, and by the end it seems like he was always down early and everybody just flipped pucks over top of him. I’m curious now as to how much of this IS a coaching issue. Vesa’s not big enough to stop, drop and roll.
February 10th, 2009 at 6:43 pm
Wouldn’t getting Backstrom be a move that resembles past leaf teams? – picking up veteran players after they have broken out with other clubs, only to find that if they are lucky they’ll get a couple of good seasons out of them…and paying top dollar all the while.
February 11th, 2009 at 12:08 am
[...] Parent Interview « Tenders Lounge Life Without Brodeur | For the public, by The Public Price, Pogge Problems Plaguing Puckstopper Toskala THE GREAT GOALTENDER DEBATE, PART II: Looking around the league… … LCS Hockey: Born Again – Tim [...]
February 11th, 2009 at 3:33 pm
Whoa, do not blame the butterfly, Gus. As a goalie playing in elite A men’s league, it’s all about the timing and reading a play and your positioning. What some of the goalies’ obvious mistake of dropping too early and getting beaten doesn’t address is their lack of puck tracking ability and timing, even while being screened. Following the puck with your eyes all the way into your body or equipment, including the rebounds. The ability to set up for the 2nd and 3rd shots if you don’t trap the puck and keeping your eye on the puck abd feet moving, if defense is sleeping.
You’ve noticed the lack of wide awake defense and playing their positions. If you don’t trust your defense, you’ll play deeper in net than you should. That back door man better be covered…
Speaking of Pogge, why the hell did the Leafs drop Clemmenson, who played in the remainder of the Marlies’ season last year, because Pogge wasn’t showing the numbers. Still isn’t today either.
On Hasek, he was a butterfly goalie too, watch every initial shot, then he did anything he could to take the low part of the net away. That’s where a high percentage of goals are truly scored. Not losing track of where your net is behind you is also a learned thing. Don’t slag the butterfly style, it’s brill and effective.
February 12th, 2009 at 4:00 pm
I blame it on the goalie coaches. Every kid today is taught the butterfly exclusively. I have watched goalie clinics with 20 kids aged 14 and under who spend a full two hour clinic on their knees. This style is not appropriate to start a kid with. The hybrid style should be getting much more attention than it currently does. One thing to remember about Patrick Roy- he looked “big” in the butterfly because his equipment was all tricked out. He is not a good example.
February 12th, 2009 at 4:53 pm
http://WWW.WORLDPROGOAL.COM
They teach what Gus is saying should be taught.
June 15th, 2009 at 3:43 pm
[...] another post, I pointed out the notion of goaltender predictability after a drubbing of the Montreal Canadiens [...]