“Meh”

“Meh”

by -
443

Meh.

I wanted to avoid getting involved in what is turning out to be a pretty telling philosophical disconnect between some at PPP and MLHS. However, I just can’t let this post slide.

Steve Burtch is quite a smart guy. He’s full of ideas, loves to write, and the passion in his work is both amusing in its audacity and engaging with its enormous depth of information. His SDI research raised some good discussion points that perhaps we, as both hardcore and voracious hockey fans, could stand to know more about the evolving role of a shutdown defenseman and perhaps take these discussion points as a mean of contextual evidence when applied at the individual level.

And to be honest, that’s all advanced stats should be – context and evidence, but not a truth.

But Burtch’s most recent post irked me. Instead of approaching Declan’s post point by point, he created one red herring after another and essentially missed the meat of what Declan was trying to say. All Declan said was that the Leafs, as a team, had many holes – particularly down the middle, and it was bound to reflect in the columns of CORSI Rel and Fenwick Close.

While raising the completely fair point that Reimer faces more shots than what’s statistically normal, Burtch attempted to conflate shot quantity with shot quality. What also bugged me most is how Burtch inferred that there was a higher degree of shots taken from a certain area, when it’s obvious to anyone that watches hockey that more shots are taken the further away from the net.

Burtch’s argument is poor on many levels. For one, it’s impossible to apply a quantitative measure to the state of quality. Quality is a transcendental act of an individual deferring to instincts and making a choice. It’s an amalgam of both experience and conscious level of decision making. It is muscle memory gleaned from hours and hours of practice. Quality is a lot of things. But quality is neither ascribable to numbers nor applicable of dimensions (see: home-plate scoring chance area).

In addition, the Leafs played a system similar to a box plus one system in their zone. While it was the coaching staff’s decision to protect their defensemen by using a speedy forward to help the defense, it was going to lead to shots against. The entire point of the system was to remove the man to man coverage and try and funnel shots into the goaltender, leading to a helpful millisecond of predictability. However, the overwhelming total of the shots per game was likely not in the coaching staff’s plans.

Lastly, Reimer faced a comparable number of <20’ shots to the likes of Bobrovsky, Fleury, and Rask to name a few. From that distance, Reimer had a better save percentage than all of them. Over an entire season, the Leafs would have lopped off almost 100 shots against from <20’ compared to previous years under Wilson. However, the Leafs would have given up the most shots from outside the 20 feet area of the net since the first record of shot location was made available. Of note, Reimer would have led the league in shots against from OUTSIDE 20’. Of course, that CONTEXT would be misplaced if it wasn’t for the fact that Declan specifically mentioned it in his original post:

Reimer had some easy nights of lots of routine, positional saves where he was giving up big-time rebounds. He had lots of support and benefited from plenty of shots from non-critical areas of the ice.

That would be CONTEXT by the way.

Over the last few years, CORSI and Fenwick has risen in prominence as a metric capable of a certain degree of predictability. Its usefulness resonates nicely with a quote from Gretzky: “You miss 100% of the shots you don’t take”. Okay, that makes a lot of sense.

However, as we know for the most part, that predictability fails considerably when applied at the individual level. See this quality comment from JeffGM of PPP:

The other problem I see with the advanced stats is that most of the studies have been completed on the team level. I haven’t seen work to show that advanced stats on an individual level offer similar correlation, usefulness or are even accurate. We know many “good” players look bad when using advanced stats (Phaneuf, McClement, Kulemin etc). There are other players that have both a better CORSI and are far worse than these players. And then there are players that have a good CORSI but poor goal production (Zherdev and Gomez).

When applied to individuals, advanced stats are a lot of like +/- that you mention which is more useful as a team metric and less useful when looking at a player (or at least more context is needed when applying them to the individual). That said, shots differentials are “better” then +/- at the team level (and probably at the individual level) but people may have too much faith in them when they are unproven at the individual level. And what level correlation to winning do advanced stats have at an individual level when they only correlate to winning at the team level with 35%.

The point here is that we need to be very suspicious of what advanced stats may portend and apply a lot more context then we do at the team level. That said, speaking as conspiracy theorist I’m not sure how often that happens.

Putting it simply, all Jeff is saying that as a rule, it’s not favourable to any argument to apply CORSI at the individual level because it tends to ignore the concept of roles – but it does give us an idea of how the player is performing in that role. That said, I think JeffGM is still very much in favour of using advanced stats as a rule of thumb when applied at the team level.

So where does that leave the advanced stats argument regarding predictability at the team level?

Here, at MLHS, we spend a lot of time discussing the smallest details about the Toronto Maple Leafs. We write, we post, we discuss. These are core tenets of any website that purports itself as a content rich place to go for anyone who shares a similar interest. We have many posters who believe in the accuracy of advanced stats and we have just as many who dislike it.

None of us at MLHS purport to be experts in the field of advanced stats, but we do try to incorporate it when looking for context to add to a post. Mike Stephens is a willing participant in this case, as well as Aaron Chan. I am as well as I have indicated many times that I like reading them because they share some roots with baseball’s Sabermetrics.

But I have never seen an argument or group dissent break out within the commenters on MLHS. Nor have I seen anyone other than myself treat the concept with derision. That doesn’t mean I find advanced stats to be flaky or disagreeable to my tastes. I find that the root of my disagreement with advanced stats comes from the people who use them as an overarching argument – or putting it more bluntly, foist it on anyone as a centric theme of their vitriol.

Among people I follow on twitter, David Johnson has made a name for himself as someone who eagerly embraces advanced stats and takes the time to study the results. In addition, Johnson is someone who doesn’t hesitate to question the viability of CORSI or Fenwick.

Not too long ago, Johnson wrote up an interesting take on the decreasing value of Fenwick and CORSI with an increased sample size. I won’t dig too deeply, but Johnson took one column of a team specific stat and measured it against winning percentage to find an r-square value between 0 and 1. The takeaway is that the defensive side of the game, which includes goaltending, favours winning more than scoring.

This is important for several reasons:

a) It reaffirms that at the pro-level, coaches are insistent about making defense the primary team focus;

b) It reaffirms that goaltending does win games – see GA60 and save percentage in the second table;

c) It reaffirms that blocked shots may have more value than previously suggested as a shot suppression via shot funneling or shots blocked (FF% — CORSI minus shots blocked). This doesn’t mean all blocked shots are good, but it requires player judgment – a quality. Conversely, I also recommend reading up on the value of blocked shots from Cam Charron. Keep in mind that blocked shots aren’t reliably recorded;

d) Shooting percentage correlates better at the individual level rather than the team level – see on-ice shooting percentage. This would suggest to some degree that the Leafs, regardless of their many flaws, focused their shot suppression by matching up line against line rather than at a team level.

While all those effects are well-reported within hockey circles and the fans that follow the sport, I find it encouraging that Johnson is willing to explore the repeatability of CORSI and Fenwick to understand what’s wrong with the stats and how to best adjust for deviations when they arise. That kind of effort and research is important if advanced stats are to take off as a repeatable and predictable measure of team success at the professional level. Johnson encourages discussion rather than suppresses it.

So rather than disagree entirely with the concept of advanced stats, I would much rather explore the nuances than altogether dismiss an opinion like Burtch did with flimsy off-handed logic that attempted to qualify a quantity that’s looking less and less reliable.

Then again, on any other site, confirmation bias doesn’t seem to rear its ugly head as often.

279 comments
toleafs
toleafs

I cant even post on my home or work computers, this has been going on for months now..fix this site, its my fav-TOLEAFS.

Savo43
Savo43

Ok guys, everybody will probably laugh at this...but what about signing Grant Clitsome? I mean, the name is sick, and lookin' at his stats he doesn't look too bad! 

Uncle Otis
Uncle Otis

Thesaurus brawl! :)

PPP should become a baseball and polo blog.

Armchair GM
Armchair GM

System is inconsistent on my Blackberry when replying... Very slow and usually don't get the previous poster's name defaulting in the comment box... Typing new comments is OK...

Armchair GM
Armchair GM

Anyone else having problems with the reply function?

Armchair GM
Armchair GM

Test... Not sure if my avatar is showing up...

Mind Bomb
Mind Bomb

Morning Boys, Looks like My Pit Vrs LA fantasy pool is not looking good lol


Burtonboy
Burtonboy

The Bruins are taking a page out of the Flyers playbook from last yrs playoffs . Its not difficult to get Crosby and the Pens rattled and the Bruins played them like a fiddle last night . 

PeterZeroOne
PeterZeroOne

Great post, I especially like that last bit about Corsi/Fenwick.  The Bruins/Pens series should be interesting - scoring vs. defense.  Anyway....

I just recently rented "Moneyball", and I took away three lessons:

1. The Oakland A's proved that their metrics like on base batting average were better predictors of individual success.

2. Collecting enough "Runs Scored" and "Runs Prevented" via getting the players which your advanced stats tell you will get or prevent Runs will, inevitably, get you enough wins and into the postseason.

3. The A's repeatedly failed in the postseason.  Even in baseball, is still a crapshoot and there are no guarantees there. 

What the advanced stats crowd is missing in hockey is all three of these salient points.   We know Phaneuf is a good defenseman, but his advanced stats suck.  So we can't rely on advanced stats to predict which player will be effective like Phaneuf.

Even if point 1 were true, and hockey's advanced stats did reliably measure individual success, then there's still point 2, which is what the Oakland A's demonstrated.  They demonstrated that collecting enough players with good scores in these sabermetrics will lead to regular season success.  To date we haven't had a demonstration like the 2002 A's in the hockey world.

But then we still have point 3 above - that using advanced stats effectively still won't necessarily lead to a championship, which is what all of us Leafs fans want.

Leafs_17
Leafs_17

Marchants hit was worse and no call 

Only_Crime
Only_Crime

Just want to give major props to morrganreilly on this. Credit to PPP too, the back and forth aside I am continually amazed at the talent of contributors to both sites. Just reading the oringal article, Steve's response and then this it's astounding how good the content is. Keep up the good work everybody.

Burtonboy
Burtonboy

@Mind Bomb LA are a fast team but the Hawks skated circles around them yesterday. Quick will keep it close but if the Hawks keep playing like that LA is toast.  Pitt "HAS" to stay away from the nonsense. If they play the Bruins game they are toast as well.

mORRganRielly
mORRganRielly

@PeterZeroOne Thanks Peter.  I highly recommend reading one of Bill James theories to further your understanding of how Sabermetrics work.  Some of the calculations are an awful convoluted mess, but they do lead to a point.  And the predictions are often quite accurate.  I also recommend checking out www.fangraphs.com at some point as well.

rockydundas
rockydundas

@Doorman Hi Doorman! Good to see you've made it to the new format! Sorry I don't have the 'no hamburger' for my avatar anymore. I didn't want people to think I was vegetarian!

mcloki
mcloki

Hey MB just went out and got coffee

Mind Bomb
Mind Bomb

@Burtonboy @Mind Bomb  Yep, and there goes my MLHS t shirt lol

I did consider Chicago over LA, I did not have the Guts to actually call it. 


MaxwellHowe
MaxwellHowe

@TheCanucksnaphook @Burtonboy Not a Chara fam, but loved the way he condescendingly bent down to chirp with Sid.  Like a father asking his 7 yr old what is bothering him today

Mind Bomb
Mind Bomb

@mcloki  Why are you hurting your ears and eyes intentionally ?


lol


mcloki
mcloki

Dufus. Damn autocorrect.

mcloki
mcloki

I'm now watching the reporters. Simmons is such a douche. And the Star guy is just a hipster duffs.

Mind Bomb
Mind Bomb

@mcloki  Hey, I have been to Timmie's and back myself, then to Mac's for the Ladies, My Sunday has started off more mobile than I had intended lol


Mind Bomb
Mind Bomb

@dlb eh @mcloki   Marchand is smarter about it, picks his spots well. Cooke is just an Idiot lol


mcloki
mcloki

Cooke is a repeat offender. They will throw the book ar him.

Mind Bomb
Mind Bomb

@bobwasyourdamnuncle @Mind Bomb Aye Bob, nothing is ever certain, but I am one of them that think a great start makes a difference, set the tone, attack first, strike first, let your opponent know you are coming ! every shift, from the start.

Boston sent a message to the Vaunted Penguins, We are not intimmidated by your allstar diva's. 

Chicago, out played LA big time. That kind of success breeds confidence.

Does it always translate ? no. As you said teams can push back, but for me I am pushing first

IMHO

 


rockydundas
rockydundas

@Bon Scott was a Leaf fan @rockydundas Well, hopefully, most of you know that my 'No hamburger' avatar was a shot at a certain former Maple Leafs blogger that used to blog at a certain site that rhymes with Pockeyfuzz. Wonder who's he's writing for now? The Orkney Examiner maybe? LOL!